Apple unveils M1, its first system-on-a-chip for portable Mac computers • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple unveils M1, its first system-on-a-chip for portable Mac computers

#631

Post by Dayshine » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:07 PM UTC

Reason077 wrote: post #547

varispeed wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't be surprised if the cooling solution was serialised and it had a detection whether the cooling is originally programmed for the particular unit like they do now with cameras and other peripherals (check iPhone 12 teardown videos). I bet that the logic would check the expected temperature for given binning and then shut down the system if it is too cool or too hot. Apple knows better than the users what hardw…

For a while, the fan was broken in my 2017 MacBook Pro 13". Didn't spin at all. The MacBook never complained (except when running the Apple hardware diagnostics). It didn't overheat or shut down unexpectedly. It just got a bit slower due to more thermal throttling. I expect it would work the other way, too. Improve the cooling and performance under load would improve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlOPPuNv4Ec

This is a video from Linus Tech Tips that demonstrates that no matter how much you cool it, they've physically prevented the chip from taking advantage of it.

And if it could be fixed with software, they would have worked out how, they're into that kinda tweaking.

Re: Apple unveils M1, its first system-on-a-chip for portable Mac computers

#632

Post by m_mueller » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:08 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #580

therealmarv wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You skipped the keynote parts where they say faster 2x, 4x, 8x... and they say faster than every other laptop CPU and faster than 98% of laptops/PCs in their class sold last year? They said it several times. But I agree... let's wait for the benchmarks (btw. iPads already overturns nearly all laptop CPUs)

> You skipped the keynote parts where they say faster 2x, 4x, 8x... and they say faster than every other laptop CPU and faster than 98% of laptops/PCs in their class sold last year? They said it several times. The important part there is "in their class". I'm sure the Apple silicon will impress in the future, but there's a reason they've only switched their lowest power laptops to M1 at launch. The higher end laptops…

I think the main reason is discrete GPUs. I’m guessing they are currently working on PCI Express for M1. That or a much faster GPU on a different version of the SoC.

Re: Apple unveils M1, its first system-on-a-chip for portable Mac computers

#633

Post by arjonagelhout » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:09 PM UTC

satysin wrote: post #165

No 32GB options on any of the models announced today is a shame. Or not I guess as it means I won't be buying anything today M1 looks impressive, hopefully it scales as well to higher TDPs. Pretty much what I expected today with all the low power models getting updated. With no fan I expect the Air will throttle the CPU quickly when using the high performance cores. Calling it an "8-core CPU" is a little cheeky IMHO…

> Also are we calling it the M1 CPU or the M1 SoC?

The M1 Chip: https://www.apple.com/mac/m1/

Re: Apple unveils M1, its first system-on-a-chip for portable Mac computers

#634

Post by kube-system » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:09 PM UTC

Reason077 wrote: post #547

varispeed wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't be surprised if the cooling solution was serialised and it had a detection whether the cooling is originally programmed for the particular unit like they do now with cameras and other peripherals (check iPhone 12 teardown videos). I bet that the logic would check the expected temperature for given binning and then shut down the system if it is too cool or too hot. Apple knows better than the users what hardw…

For a while, the fan was broken in my 2017 MacBook Pro 13". Didn't spin at all. The MacBook never complained (except when running the Apple hardware diagnostics). It didn't overheat or shut down unexpectedly. It just got a bit slower due to more thermal throttling. I expect it would work the other way, too. Improve the cooling and performance under load would improve.

Intel chips, on the other hand, are designed to work with a varying degree of thermal situations because they don't control the laptop it is put in. In this situation, Apple could potentially get more creative with their approach to thermals because they control the entire hardware stack.

Re: Apple unveils M1, its first system-on-a-chip for portable Mac computers

#635

Post by pmart123 » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

fabianhjr wrote: post #344

I am somewhat skeptical about total performance claims as many notebook manufacturers have been moving to ARM for efficiency and not total performance. Current top of the line for notebooks would be the Qualcomm 8cx (ARM, 7? Watts) and AMD 4800U (x86-64, 15 Watts TDP) from quick search around. Would be interesting to see independent reviewers benchmarking those 2 in comparison to Apple's first in-house processor. Her…

Perhaps it is due to less data copying and configuring the right processor for the job in Apple's benchmarks? Most CPU benchmarks wouldn't be testing the performance characteristics if the matrix heavy computations were done by the GPU, etc.?

Re: Apple unveils M1, its first system-on-a-chip for portable Mac computers

#636

Post by dmix » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

arnarbi wrote: post #629

marta_morena_28 wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just that. At 5nm there will also be yield problems. I.e they will put the best yield into high end and the worst yield into low end.

That’s what “binned differently” means btw.

Well then that was a good explanation because I didn’t know that!

Re: Apple unveils M1, its first system-on-a-chip for portable Mac computers

#637

Post by batmenace » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

skohan wrote: post #271

satysin wrote: post #165

No 32GB options on any of the models announced today is a shame. Or not I guess as it means I won't be buying anything today M1 looks impressive, hopefully it scales as well to higher TDPs. Pretty much what I expected today with all the low power models getting updated. With no fan I expect the Air will throttle the CPU quickly when using the high performance cores. Calling it an "8-core CPU" is a little cheeky IMHO…

> I am very disappointed to see the design is identical to what we currently have Yeah one possible explanation I can think of is that they're not 100% confident in how rollout will go, and they want to avoid the situation where people in the wild are showing off their "brand new macs" which are still going through teething issues. There's less chance of souring the brand impression of M1 if they blend into the produ…

I think it could also be that a lot of people will be 'calmed' by the design they're used to when you're trying to convince them of a new chip the average consumer might not understand

Re: Apple unveils M1, its first system-on-a-chip for portable Mac computers

#638

Post by ctvo » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:12 PM UTC

tachyonbeam wrote: post #619

klelatti wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Pro is quoted as 2.8x the 1.7 GHz i7. Not Intel's fastest chip but, if these benchmarks are correct, that's a big speed bump and the higher end Pro's are to come. How fast does it have to be in this thermal envelope to get excited about?

How many cores does that have, and how many cores does the i7 have though?

Why is this a mystery or rhetorical question? Look on the website? It's public:

M1

> Apple M1 chip

> 8-core CPU with 4 performance cores and 4 efficiency cores

> 8-core GPU

> 16-core Neural Engine

Intel

> 1.7GHz quad-core Intel Core i7, Turbo Boost up to 4.5GHz, with 128MB of eDRAM

https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-13/specs/

https://www.apple.com/shop/product/G0W42LL/A/refurbished-133...

Apple's claim:

> With an 8‑core CPU and 8‑core GPU, M1 on MacBook Pro delivers up to 2.8x faster CPU performance¹ and up to 5x faster graphics² than the previous generation.

https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/13-inch-space...

Fine print:

> Testing conducted by Apple in October 2020 using preproduction 13‑inch MacBook Pro systems with Apple M1 chip, as well as production 1.7GHz quad‑core Intel Core i7‑based 13‑inch MacBook Pro systems, all configured with 16GB RAM and 2TB SSD. Open source project built with prerelease Xcode 12.2 with Apple Clang 12.0.0, Ninja 1.10.0.git, and CMake 3.16.5. Performance tests are conducted using specific computer systems and reflect the approximate performance of MacBook Pro.

> Testing conducted by Apple in October 2020 using preproduction 13‑inch MacBook Pro systems with Apple M1 chip, as well as production 1.7GHz quad‑core Intel Core i7‑based 13‑inch MacBook Pro systems with Intel Iris Plus Graphics 645, all configured with 16GB RAM and 2TB SSD. Tested with prerelease Final Cut Pro 10.5 using a 10‑second project with Apple ProRes 422 video at 3840x2160 resolution and 30 frames per second. Performance tests are conducted using specific computer systems and reflect the approximate performance of MacBook Pro.

Re: Apple unveils M1, its first system-on-a-chip for portable Mac computers

#639

Post by Kognito » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:12 PM UTC

diehunde wrote: post #623

xienze wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or not I guess as it means I won't be buying anything today Honestly, people who don't use their computers as Facebook machines or have very specific things they want to do with the ML engine should probably stay away from Arm Macs for a couple years. There's bound to be plenty of software that doesn't work or doesn't work well, Docker will have ~limited usefulness until more and more people publish Arm images, etc…

I didn't watch the event, but if you have an Intel MacBook, will everything keep working as it is now? Even when upgrading to Big Sur?

Yeah, there’s no change for Intel Mac owners really. Given Apple will still be selling Intel Macs through 2021 and likely 2022, I’d expect them to be fully supported through something like 2026/7 (though your exact model may vary depending on its current age).

Re: Apple unveils M1, its first system-on-a-chip for portable Mac computers

#640

Post by pmart123 » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:13 PM UTC

john_minsk wrote: post #399

linuxhansl wrote: post #366

Do I need to worry now that a walled-garden company - with all its advantages - pulls ahead of open ecosystems? I only use Linux at home. Will I be doomed to inferior H/W going forward? This is not a rhetorical question or a flame... It's an honest question... Is Apple pulling ahead of everybody else and soon going to be our only option?

I doubt it. When they talk about performance - they always said it in terms of compute/watt. In absolute numbers these CPUs and GPUs will still be less performant - just my guess. On top of it for a foreseeable future I think a lot of professional software will stay on x86 architecture simply because most of it must be also available on Windows.

I'd agree, but Apple's position with the iPad likely will ensure enough professional developer mindshare? Most enterprise apps I use typically have a fairly built out version for the iPad (and most only support Windows otherwise). I agree that developers themselves will likely stick with x86 architecture to write code on for the most part given that's what servers will run.