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Students have to jump through absurd hoops to use exam monitoring software

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Re: Students have to jump through absurd hoops to use exam monitoring software

#141
Hypothetical question:

What if the client side of this program was open-source, and all it did was record the screen and web camera, and upload a copy to a server that was run by the school on premises.

Would this change your view on the software or make you more likely to agree, however begrudgingly, with the use of this kind of program?

Re: Students have to jump through absurd hoops to use exam monitoring software

#142
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I teach programming. What prevents students from colluding over their tablets/mobiles/laptops while taking the exam from another device? Can't the student mirror the screen elsewhere, leading to interesting possibilities for cheating? Proctoring is not a solution that I am comfortable with. I do not want to peer into the private lives of students and their home environments. Not every student is well-off, and has a p…

I'm genuinely curious to learn your option on cheating - does it actually matter? What I mean is - certainly you don't want to harm the reputation of your school, and you want your students to have actually learned the material and be prepared for whatever they do in life that requires that knowledge... but what I'm wondering is... if there's presumably some tiny percentage of a class that is going to actually cheat…

> presumably some tiny percentage of a class that is going to actually cheat or act in ethically questionable ways

According to the International Centre for Academic Integrity, from 71,000+ US students surveyed between 2002 and 2015 at least 68% of students admitted cheating in some way.

https://www.academicintegrity.org/statistics/

Re: Students have to jump through absurd hoops to use exam monitoring software

#143

Folks are doing take-home exam wrong. Caltech had tremendous success with a culture of honesty and take-home exams.

Caltech had tremendous success with a culture of honesty and take-home exams.

"Can I use Feynman?"

Re: Students have to jump through absurd hoops to use exam monitoring software

#144
post #84

To me, this underscores notion that schools continue to test for the wrong thing. With the exception of professions/trades that require impulse application of knowledge, I don't know why I would want/need someone to memorize a concept in order to apply it. Productive members of our society/workforce think critically, they ask good questions, and they research and leverage the information at their disposal to make dat…

while this sounds good on the surface, i think memorization is much more important than you give it credit. imo you absolutely should have key concepts memorized if you have any real understanding of a subject. and as you become more of a specialist, your bar for what constitutes a "key concept" should raise. Being able to search things up is well and good, but dont you run into situations where you don't even know w…

When you understand and are familiar with something you get the relevant facts in your head as a side effect. If you put them there deliberately, through the activity of memorization, that is not understanding.

Re: Students have to jump through absurd hoops to use exam monitoring software

#145
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I teach programming. What prevents students from colluding over their tablets/mobiles/laptops while taking the exam from another device? Can't the student mirror the screen elsewhere, leading to interesting possibilities for cheating? Proctoring is not a solution that I am comfortable with. I do not want to peer into the private lives of students and their home environments. Not every student is well-off, and has a p…

I'm genuinely curious to learn your option on cheating - does it actually matter? What I mean is - certainly you don't want to harm the reputation of your school, and you want your students to have actually learned the material and be prepared for whatever they do in life that requires that knowledge... but what I'm wondering is... if there's presumably some tiny percentage of a class that is going to actually cheat…

One third of the students on my last exam cheated (at least, these were the ones that gave an identical answer to one of the problems, including identical minor typos). I was using the tools described in the article, but apparently I was being too lax about enforcing the 360 degree views or something as they clearly colluded to find a way to share answers anyway.

Re: Students have to jump through absurd hoops to use exam monitoring software

#146

My only computer has Linux installed on it. I wouldn't be able to take an exam that required a windows computer. If you make exams online, you should change the format to one that is better suited to people having access to the internet. They did that with our exams, and it worked perfectly fine, sidestepping the issues with these exams.

This is a good point.

My Organic Chemistry class had tests that were open-book, open-note, open-internet. Pretty much the only thing you couldn't do was talk to other students. Even if you tried to contact other students by the internet (which they didn't even try to police), there were several versions of each exam, so you were unlikely to find help.

They were still by far the hardest exams I took at University, because the questions were crafted such that you couldn't easily find the answers. Trying to look up a question in the book or online was more likely to waste test time than get you the answer.

Re: Students have to jump through absurd hoops to use exam monitoring software

#147
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will never work because it absolutely fails to scale, at a time when we have a complete lack of computing educators. Customized projects for each student? I have 159 students in my CS1 this semester, and I can barely keep track of them with the massive amounts of data I collect. The idea of making individualized assignments is beautiful but unrealistic.

Most code reviews I've done at work take between 5 minutes to 10 minutes. To assume the worst possible case of 200 students, 20 deliverable per student, and a 10 minutes meeting per MR you'd be at ~28 days (~84 8hr-days). Get 1 TA and you now have 42 days of the semester dedicated to 1:1 time (35%) and the remainder of the semester dedicated to producing learning content. Learning content (lecture videos, etc) can be…

Code reviews I have done for unrelated bits of code often take me 90 minutes. And that's for code that fits into the idea of my product space, but not super familiar to my everyday life. I don't think 5-10 minutes is anywhere close to reasonable.

Re: Students have to jump through absurd hoops to use exam monitoring software

#148
post #96

To me, this underscores notion that schools continue to test for the wrong thing. With the exception of professions/trades that require impulse application of knowledge, I don't know why I would want/need someone to memorize a concept in order to apply it. Productive members of our society/workforce think critically, they ask good questions, and they research and leverage the information at their disposal to make dat…

Memorization is absolutely crucial to getting good at math. In fact, I don't think there's any other way to get good at math besides memorization and doing problems, over and over and over again. It's rote, sure, but it has tremendous value. If you think you understand something, but can't actually solve problems without referencing anything, you don't actually understand it.

I have a degree in math and I strongly disagree with this comment. I was always terrible at memorizing things, and I still regularly reach for Google to double-check formulas and theorems I should know well. In practice, I think a lot of math people end up memorizing things the same way programmers memorize the syntax and tools of their preferred languages; it's not necessarily something you explicitly set out to memorize, but you use them so often that you end up internalizing them anyway.

Re: Students have to jump through absurd hoops to use exam monitoring software

#149
post #120
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Memorization is absolutely crucial to getting good at math. In fact, I don't think there's any other way to get good at math besides memorization and doing problems, over and over and over again. It's rote, sure, but it has tremendous value. If you think you understand something, but can't actually solve problems without referencing anything, you don't actually understand it.

This is absolutely backwards. No amount of reference sheets will help you with mathematics if you don't understand something.

I think you have backwards: you only understand something after grinding out problems and memorization.

Re: Students have to jump through absurd hoops to use exam monitoring software

#150

I had a teacher that solved this by saying all exams were open book, and then put so many questions that if you didnt know the material you'd just run out of time. Basically you could look up a very low number of things in the amount of time per question allotted

If the students are being tested from home, you would still need to ensure that they weren't getting an expert friend to help them.
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