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Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

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Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#111

Post by Moru »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #73
petargyurov wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am certain that a vast majority of people have never tasted a "real" tomato. Here in the UK (though I'm sure this applies globally), tomatoes sold in supermarkets taste like plastic. Reason being is that they are picked when they are green and they "ripen" by the time they get to the store shelf. This is done because tomatoes are almost impossible to transfer safely in large quantities, because when they are ripe t…

I think it's not just that produce is picked unripe. As some sibling commenters say, there might be more to it. Either genetic, through selection, or chemical, through whatever they put in the soil for it to grow bigger / quicker. The issue I have with most store-bought produce is that it has practically no taste whatsoever. It tastes like water. Tomatoes taste like water. Peppers taste like water. I've never had sto…

When I was a kid (35+ years ago) we used to buy tomatoes from a greenhouse locally. They had some boxes on the back with second sorting greens and a box for money. We grabbed 3-4 bags full of tomatoes, left the money and by the time we were home there was only two bags left. They were so good, I haven't seen anything remotely similar to that in the store. I wish I knew the name of those tomatoes, I would love to grow them myself.

Similar with strawberries, I was asking what sort they had but don't remember any more. He told us he selects them for taste, not optimizing for scale. But the plants are slightly harder to take care of and sometimes the harvest fails. But the taste is worth all the hazzle.

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#112

Post by habosa »

tweetle_beetle wrote: post #107
petargyurov wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am certain that a vast majority of people have never tasted a "real" tomato. Here in the UK (though I'm sure this applies globally), tomatoes sold in supermarkets taste like plastic. Reason being is that they are picked when they are green and they "ripen" by the time they get to the store shelf. This is done because tomatoes are almost impossible to transfer safely in large quantities, because when they are ripe t…

> Reason being is that they are picked when they are green Is that really true any more? The supply chains are incredibly fast now and I can't imagine there's enough time for this process to take place - even tomatoes from southern Spain are probably on shelves in a few days. It's not like shipping bananas from the Caribbean. I think it's more that the watery tomatoes are the varieties that grow the fastest and offer…

I've heard that bananas can be caused to ripen rapidly by exposing them to ethylene gas. This means you can transport them green so they don't bruise and then quickly turn them yellow when they arrive at the destination for sale (like in the last warehouse).

I'd imagine you can do the same with tomatoes?

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#113

Post by rjzzleep »

colechristensen wrote: post #55

There’s a cognitive bias where if you tell a certain kind of person a negative story about an environmental issue they will believe it, regardless of its content. If you read the article, none of the quoted sources say anything about depleted soil. It says it in the title, that’s it. Bait. What it actually says is plant breeding and other agricultural practices caused the nutritional decline. You breed plants for sto…

There is a stats podcast from the BBC that examines some of these stats. In one of the episodes they look at the Tomatos in the UK. In short while things changed in that particular instance the previous numbers of certain nutrients were actually problematic to other factors(Sorry I'd have to listen again to remember what exactly. I believe it was either energy/coal or war related, but don't quote me on that).

However, some of the nutrients in the things we eat actually come from the bacteria in the soil, so it stands to reason that both the killing of the soils as well as breeding more sugar rich fruits in general may ultimately have adverse effects to our health.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csz3ry

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#114

Post by dawidw »

colechristensen wrote: post #109
dawidw wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This makes producers use [...] no pesticides Ask yourself: do you have a choice? Are you really able to buy all products for any meal - really, any meal - that they were not treated with pesticides? Another interesting question: is it possible to buy anywhere (even on the Internet) non-GMO corn? You know, the original one, created by nature which were possible to have 200 years ago?

>Ask yourself: do you have a choice? Are you really able to buy all products for any meal - really, any meal - that they were not treated with pesticides? Yes, absolutely. It would really depend on what you consider "a pesticide" and if organic alternatives counted and if at that which ones, regardless it is still quite possible, you just have to understand where your food comes from. > Another interesting question:…

> Yes, absolutely.

> It would really depend on what you consider "a pesticide" and [...]

OK, you're right, I agree here with you 100%.

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#116

Post by Moru »

londons_explore wrote: post #48
hamolton wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going to a farmer's market tends to be easier

Very few farmers at a farmers market can honestly say the produce they're selling came from their farm. The vast majority comes from wholesale auctions just like everything else.

There is an organisation called "The Farmers Own Market" (but in swedish). The rule is 250 km max distance from farm to market. The people selling has to be involved in the physical farming to be allowed to sell there. There are also webstores that sell for pickup at the farm or a central place in bigger towns (usually a parking outside a shopping mall).

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#117

Post by kilotaras »

colechristensen wrote: post #66
sradman wrote: post #61

This can be both true and irrelevant at the same time. The focus should be on the key nutrients for each food, that is, those food/nutrient pairs that significantly contribute to the required daily values, especially nutrients that the general population is deficient in. I think the general trend in western nations is a decline in nutrient deficiencies despite modern agriculture practices.

The decline of deficiencies has a lot to do with fortifying processed foods with various nutrients, and generally food being cheap enough that poverty is more associated with obesity than starvation.

Obesity and nutrients deficiency aren't mutually exclusive. e.g. "Studies have shown that many people with obesity have inadequate intake of iron, calcium, magnesium, zinc, copper, folate and vitamins A and B12, likely as a result of poor diet quality"

[0] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41366-018-0143-9

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#118

Post by tobias3 »

FrojoS wrote: post #29
petargyurov wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am certain that a vast majority of people have never tasted a "real" tomato. Here in the UK (though I'm sure this applies globally), tomatoes sold in supermarkets taste like plastic. Reason being is that they are picked when they are green and they "ripen" by the time they get to the store shelf. This is done because tomatoes are almost impossible to transfer safely in large quantities, because when they are ripe t…

Can confirm. Does this also apply to canned Tomatos or are those allowed to ripe on soil, because damage didn’t matter? I think they taste better and I’ve Heard- than many top chefs prefer them over “fresh” tomatoes for cooking.

Canned tomatoes are really interesting. They are a different variety of tomatoes (Roma tomatoes) that can be picked via machine. That's also why they taste differently. The automated picking is why they are cheaper (plus the variety is better for quantity). One wouldn't be able to sell the automatically picked tomatoes uncanned since their skin gets damaged.

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#119

Post by Melting_Harps »

tweetle_beetle wrote: post #107
petargyurov wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am certain that a vast majority of people have never tasted a "real" tomato. Here in the UK (though I'm sure this applies globally), tomatoes sold in supermarkets taste like plastic. Reason being is that they are picked when they are green and they "ripen" by the time they get to the store shelf. This is done because tomatoes are almost impossible to transfer safely in large quantities, because when they are ripe t…

> Reason being is that they are picked when they are green Is that really true any more? The supply chains are incredibly fast now and I can't imagine there's enough time for this process to take place - even tomatoes from southern Spain are probably on shelves in a few days. It's not like shipping bananas from the Caribbean. I think it's more that the watery tomatoes are the varieties that grow the fastest and offer…

> Is that really true any more? The supply chains are incredibly fast now and I can't imagine there's enough time for this process to take place - even tomatoes from southern Spain are probably on shelves in a few days.

It is, even within relatively close main EU nations we had significant losses (~30% of gross weight) between organic/Biodynaimc suppliers from Italy to Germany where I did my first year of apprenticeship. My first job was to sort through the waste pumpkins and potatoes that arrived on a daily basis for 2 weeks in September in large crates for storage and distribution to the farm's stores/CSA/Farmers Market outlets.

It's funny because that farms soil was so rich that the seeds scattered around from wasted pumpkins in the compost pile were vining well into December. I found a few decent sized pumpkins (albeit green) when we had to turn the compost pile later in the Winter.

But suffice it to say, it's insane how much food gets lost due to transport!

> An increasing number of tomato imports are coming from the mega greenhouses where they are harvested red and can be packed on site.

Perhaps to hyper-local Markets that's the case, but having spent time in Supply Chain for large Auto-manufactures batch shipping is still the norm for such low-margin commodities and delays have only compounded further since COVID. Also, Holland is (or until recently as COVID may have changed that) the largest exporter of it's Green-house produce and biggest importer of Organic and Biodynamic produce in the EU. In short, for many in NL: they're not consuming their own supply.

> I've been trying for a few years. It's been fun and the varieties are way more interesting, but I'm not in danger of flooding the market.

I'm ashamed to say I haven't had a proper tomato this year, and this is coming from a former farmer and chef.

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#120

Post by thdrdt »

colechristensen wrote: post #55

There’s a cognitive bias where if you tell a certain kind of person a negative story about an environmental issue they will believe it, regardless of its content. If you read the article, none of the quoted sources say anything about depleted soil. It says it in the title, that’s it. Bait. What it actually says is plant breeding and other agricultural practices caused the nutritional decline. You breed plants for sto…

In the Netherlands we grow a lot of bell peppers on 'water'. Those sweet pepers are much larger than the ones grown on soal. But the only difference is the taste and the thickness of the skin. They might even be a little more healthy because they were grown in a lab like controlled environment.

Imho the taste is a big trade-off, but growing them on water takes way less space and also makes a failed harvest less likely.

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