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Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#101
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With more resistance to pesticides and herbicides, farmers can add more of these substances to plants, and that will incidentally kill other lifeforms in the soil ecosystem that affect the nutritional content of the soil.

Resistance to pests, not pesticides. This makes producers use fewer or no pesticides, not more. A naturally occuring pest resistance gene will be copied from one organism to the crop in question. And the herbicide resistance usually allows for the usage of safer herbicides.

> This makes producers use [...] no pesticides

Ask yourself: do you have a choice? Are you really able to buy all products for any meal - really, any meal - that they were not treated with pesticides?

Another interesting question: is it possible to buy anywhere (even on the Internet) non-GMO corn? You know, the original one, created by nature which were possible to have 200 years ago?

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#102

The large retail chains in Europe sell what I call porn-fruits and porn-vegetables. Especially places like EDEKA, REWE, Kaufland in Germany. Strawberries, berries, raspberries, carrots, tomatoes, cucumbers, salads, apples, pears, eggplants, etc. - shiny (do they wax them?), large, unified size, saturated color. Barely any taste, all watery. Grown in perfectly artificial industrial greenhouses. Not a trace of soil on…

What's your favorite place to buy in Germany?

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#103

The large retail chains in Europe sell what I call porn-fruits and porn-vegetables. Especially places like EDEKA, REWE, Kaufland in Germany. Strawberries, berries, raspberries, carrots, tomatoes, cucumbers, salads, apples, pears, eggplants, etc. - shiny (do they wax them?), large, unified size, saturated color. Barely any taste, all watery. Grown in perfectly artificial industrial greenhouses. Not a trace of soil on…

It's worse! In fact they get these perfect ones by throwing away the imperfects. You can but a lot of fruit and veg for animal feed; marked grade B or C at a fraction of the grade A price - because they are blemished or ugly.

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#104

The large retail chains in Europe sell what I call porn-fruits and porn-vegetables. Especially places like EDEKA, REWE, Kaufland in Germany. Strawberries, berries, raspberries, carrots, tomatoes, cucumbers, salads, apples, pears, eggplants, etc. - shiny (do they wax them?), large, unified size, saturated color. Barely any taste, all watery. Grown in perfectly artificial industrial greenhouses. Not a trace of soil on…

That's likely not due to how they are grown but the genetics of the plant. If you took the seeds for one of them and grew it in your garden with sunshine and birdsong it would still look and taste the same. That's because good looking produce sells better than good tasting one, so that's how commercial plants are bred: for transportation and looks instead of taste.

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#105

There’s a cognitive bias where if you tell a certain kind of person a negative story about an environmental issue they will believe it, regardless of its content. If you read the article, none of the quoted sources say anything about depleted soil. It says it in the title, that’s it. Bait. What it actually says is plant breeding and other agricultural practices caused the nutritional decline. You breed plants for sto…

> There’s a cognitive bias where if you tell a certain kind of person a negative story about an environmental issue they will believe it, regardless of its content.

Having been an environmentalist and activist this is contrary to about 18 years of personal experience. If anything it seems to be a mental manipulation that rationalizes such a claim as it somehow seems to not affect them personally 'right now' that it must not be so bad.

> If you read the article, none of the quoted sources say anything about depleted soil. It says it in the title, that’s it. Bait.

I read it, and this was actually about par-for-the-course type of 'journalism' of what was being written at the time--I spent much of my time trying to understand the correlations between diet and maladies like cancer, diabetes, and heart disease and found very little that went in depth as their simply wasn't much published research on the topic.

It was also written several months before I personally would dive head-long (I did a horticulture apprenticeship in Europe, and went back to the Culinary industry focused on Farm to table concepts) into the DEEP implications of how a broken food supply has damaged Society after having spent time in diagnostics and completed an undergad in biology.

> It doesn’t seem to have much at all to do with the soil quality going down over decades and more to do with industrial food distribution.

Actually it does, albeit very superficially, and its advocating for organic practices as a way to overcome that.

Selective breeding and hybridization is nothing new in Agriculture, what is new is this broken International food supply that can only exist because its highly subsidized which in turn suffocates the smaller more resilient system. It was the former's catastrophic failure under the logistical stress of COVID that many people suddenly saw the value of such a model in masse as CSA memberships sold out in record numbers all over the US, as did meat-shares. All while major Ag corps and Food Corps had to let fields rot and had their animals culled.

I only wrote this because in my my other tab I was reading this article [0] about the decrease in the average height of school children Worldwide due to poor nutrition in school meals--a system where much of the government subsidized, poor nutrient food ends up, at a large markup no less. As the increase in obesity along side it, which is in part a byproduct of processed and nutrient deficient food that messes up with the body's innate satiation feedback system.

The study also coincidences with the take-over of many small farms by large Agra/Pharma corps (1980s) and the wide usage of things like glyphosate resistant plants as staples in processed food. I highly recommend the book 'Harvest of Rage' as it explores much of what had become of Rural America since that take-over and the political climate that has come from it--crystallized by how demagogues like Trump come into office and have the ability to radicalize such a significant amount of people in the process.

0: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/11/201105183840.h...

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#107
post #5

Blueberries that taste the same but are transparent in the middle. Tomatoes that tase water. Cucumber that look great and almost tasteless. You don't know what you are missing if you have never tasted the "real" deal.

I am certain that a vast majority of people have never tasted a "real" tomato. Here in the UK (though I'm sure this applies globally), tomatoes sold in supermarkets taste like plastic. Reason being is that they are picked when they are green and they "ripen" by the time they get to the store shelf. This is done because tomatoes are almost impossible to transfer safely in large quantities, because when they are ripe t…

> Reason being is that they are picked when they are green

Is that really true any more? The supply chains are incredibly fast now and I can't imagine there's enough time for this process to take place - even tomatoes from southern Spain are probably on shelves in a few days. It's not like shipping bananas from the Caribbean. I think it's more that the watery tomatoes are the varieties that grow the fastest and offer the best margins at the lower pricepoints.

An increasing number of tomato imports are coming from the mega greenhouses where they are harvested red and can be packed on site. This one is Dutch [1], but I remember hearing that they're building some in the UK. Clearly they're never going to be the same as growing them in a garden in Sicily and leaving them to ripen for a few days in the sun, but not bad for mass production, available year round and much, much better than the tomatoes in the supermarkets a couple of decades ago.

> So, grow your own tomatoes - it's surpisingly easy - and the taste is amazing.

I've been trying for a few years. It's been fun and the varieties are way more interesting, but I'm not in danger of flooding the market.

[1] https://duijvestijntomaten.nl/en/packaging/

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#108
post #5

Blueberries that taste the same but are transparent in the middle. Tomatoes that tase water. Cucumber that look great and almost tasteless. You don't know what you are missing if you have never tasted the "real" deal.

I'm kinda into tomatoes: the same variety can result different taste and nutritional value (dry matter content) depending on the growing conditions. I know two greenhouse growers, growing the same variety of tomato on the same rootstock in the same medium. One of them has ~5-5.5% DMC while the other has close to 8% in the mid-spring season. They taste different, but they yield different as well (higher quality means…

UV radiation from the sun also effects the taste; It brings out the 'nightshade' flavor.

Re: Have Fruits and Vegetables Become Less Nutritious? (2011)

#109
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Resistance to pests, not pesticides. This makes producers use fewer or no pesticides, not more. A naturally occuring pest resistance gene will be copied from one organism to the crop in question. And the herbicide resistance usually allows for the usage of safer herbicides.

> This makes producers use [...] no pesticides Ask yourself: do you have a choice? Are you really able to buy all products for any meal - really, any meal - that they were not treated with pesticides? Another interesting question: is it possible to buy anywhere (even on the Internet) non-GMO corn? You know, the original one, created by nature which were possible to have 200 years ago?

>Ask yourself: do you have a choice? Are you really able to buy all products for any meal - really, any meal - that they were not treated with pesticides?

Yes, absolutely.

It would really depend on what you consider "a pesticide" and if organic alternatives counted and if at that which ones, regardless it is still quite possible, you just have to understand where your food comes from.

> Another interesting question: is it possible to buy anywhere (even on the Internet) non-GMO corn?

Say you're a farmer in the midwest, here's a place to buy non-GMO seed corn to grow on your farm:

https://www.alseed.com/product-category/corn/viking-conventi...

Non-GMO corn is common, the supply chain is very aware if the product is GMO or not.

>You know, the original one, created by nature which were possible to have 200 years ago?

No such thing. Corn/maize has been manipulated by humans for millennia, the wild relative is essentially not recognizable as anything other than an ordinary wild grass species.

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