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Looking for Voter Fraud (In Old Elections) with Data Visualization

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Re: Looking for Voter Fraud (In Old Elections) with Data Visualization

#201

Post by rayiner »

JamesBarney wrote: post #138
rayiner wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because federal law is only supposed to be a very small part of the law that applies to people.

In 18th century theory. In 21st century practice it's incredibly influential. Do we tax more for social security or cut benefits, do we extend medicare to 55 year olds or delay it until 70, can my daca friends get a job, can Icontinue to operate a company(Obamacare), not to mention war. It's far more influential than my city( or state government.(I live in Houston, this would probably be less true in states like New…

It’s not an 18th century versus 21st century thing. Switzerland manages to be a 21sr century country without equal representation at the federal level.

Re: Looking for Voter Fraud (In Old Elections) with Data Visualization

#202

Post by guildwriter »

js2 wrote: post #86
jeffreyrogers wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fraud obviously happens that doesn't come to light until later: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-philadelphia-judge-ele...

You found one in the 0.00002%. Notably, this occurred during a primary. It's still awful, but the GOP trusts the Democrats to run their own primaries and vice-versa. I wonder how this came to light years after. https://www.brennancenter.org/issues/ensure-every-american-c...

Twisted things being done in our elections goes back to Tammany Hall. If you know where to look in American history it's not hard to find credible instances of important elections having substantial amounts of fraud. Why do people believe that when the chips are down and vast amounts of money and power are at stake that people are simply going to play fair? Especially when the players are some of the most ruthless, narcissistic, and sociopathic people in America?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_United_States_Senate_elec...

>The validity of the runoff election was challenged before the US Supreme Court due to allegations of election fraud, and in later years, testimony by parties involved indicated that widespread fraud occurred and that friendly political machines[3] produced the fraudulent votes needed for Johnson to have a numerical majority, in effect stealing the election.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_United_States_presidentia...

> Some, including Republican legislators and journalists, believed that Kennedy benefited from vote fraud from Mayor Richard Daley's powerful Chicago political machine. [12] Mayor Daley’s machine was known for "delivering whopping Democratic tallies by fair means and foul."[13] Republicans tried and failed to overturn the results at the time—as well as in ten other states.[13] Some journalists also later claimed that mobster Sam Giancana and his Chicago crime syndicate "played a role" in Kennedy's victory. [13] Nixon's campaign staff urged him to pursue recounts and challenge the validity of Kennedy's victory, however, Nixon gave a speech three days after the election stating that he would not contest the election.[14]

Re: Looking for Voter Fraud (In Old Elections) with Data Visualization

#203

Post by js2 »

tastyfreeze wrote: post #143
TheDong wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware of that fact. I'm hopeful the popular vote interstate compact[0] will get adopted by enough states to make it so each person's vote counts equally. What you suggested above is a way to weight citizen's vote's even less equally than they do now, which is what I was responding to. The situation we have now is bad too, imo, but better than each state having an equal vote, irrespective of population. [0]: https…

Popular vote destroys any shred of state sovereignty that remains. Why would states remain in the union if California and New York forever dictate the direction of the country? This is a dark path to tread.

Minoritarian rule through anti-democratic bodies like the EC and the Senate is a dark path to tread.

The states have sovereignty through federalism and the US constitution. The EC and the Senate are not necessary to their sovereignty.

Re: Looking for Voter Fraud (In Old Elections) with Data Visualization

#204

Post by fastball »

zo1 wrote: post #174
maxerickson wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What 'modern improvements' can be made over paper ballots?

No one likes to hear these, but some simple ones to try: 1. Central database of all citizens. (Can be state-level if you want to do that). 2. Require voter-ID to link against 1 above. 3. Tick off people on the database as they've voted so they can't vote twice. And just like that, most (but not all) of the "mail in ballot" concerns are rendered mute and we can all continue with trusting the election results.

You can do this but with anonymized private key cards.

Re: Looking for Voter Fraud (In Old Elections) with Data Visualization

#205

Post by chaz72 »

guscost wrote: post #160
tptacek wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dead people will vote in every election that allows absentee ballots, because people die after they mail their ballot but before election day. Atomicity. It's a bitch. Every state has an electronic pollbook that tracks voter eligibility. Votes for dead people will arrive, but they should not as a rule be counted.

There are definitely a few dead people who register to vote after dying, and successfully vote, in every election too.

Then you can definitely name one.

Re: Looking for Voter Fraud (In Old Elections) with Data Visualization

#206

Post by mithr »

tastyfreeze wrote: post #143
TheDong wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware of that fact. I'm hopeful the popular vote interstate compact[0] will get adopted by enough states to make it so each person's vote counts equally. What you suggested above is a way to weight citizen's vote's even less equally than they do now, which is what I was responding to. The situation we have now is bad too, imo, but better than each state having an equal vote, irrespective of population. [0]: https…

Popular vote destroys any shred of state sovereignty that remains. Why would states remain in the union if California and New York forever dictate the direction of the country? This is a dark path to tread.

Presumably because they'd want something that another union state provides, and/or benefits that comes with being a larger country rather than an small independent one.

A union can't really be "equal" between all states unless all states contribute and benefit equally, and you can't really expect millions of people who live in a prosperous and populous state to be willing to discount their own voices so that the voices of those who may contribute less count far more than theirs. I'm not sure a perfect system exists -- it's all a series of tradeoffs, and a popular vote system would have its own -- but saying that the 700k people living in Alaska should have the exact same influence as the 40 million people living in California doesn't make things any better.

Ultimately, a country is made up of people, not political entities.

Re: Looking for Voter Fraud (In Old Elections) with Data Visualization

#207

Post by klipt »

skunkworker wrote: post #168

Personally I'm curious how much voter fraud is committed by parents of college students who receive their students absentee ballots and decide to "fill them out" for them. It's the most intentional voter fraud that I'm aware of at the moment and non-conspiratorial. Things like this pop up on reddit occasionally. https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/9twaf9/gfs_dad... https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comme…

Assuming college students are on average more liberal than their parents, parents fraudulently filling in votes for their children would benefit the GOP more than the Democrats.

Re: Looking for Voter Fraud (In Old Elections) with Data Visualization

#208

Post by fastball »

skunkworker wrote: post #168

Personally I'm curious how much voter fraud is committed by parents of college students who receive their students absentee ballots and decide to "fill them out" for them. It's the most intentional voter fraud that I'm aware of at the moment and non-conspiratorial. Things like this pop up on reddit occasionally. https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/9twaf9/gfs_dad... https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comme…

I'd be very surprised (given the appeal to Reddit's political leanings) if all of those aren't examples of reddit's favorite past-time (creative writing).

Like, come on, there is no possible way these people are actually dumb enough to even question whether or not someone voting for you is allowed, yet they all ask that question. Because if they didn't ask a dumb question like that, their creative writing sample wouldn't get to live in /r/legaladvice.

Re: Looking for Voter Fraud (In Old Elections) with Data Visualization

#209

Post by coagmano »

zo1 wrote: post #174
maxerickson wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What 'modern improvements' can be made over paper ballots?

No one likes to hear these, but some simple ones to try: 1. Central database of all citizens. (Can be state-level if you want to do that). 2. Require voter-ID to link against 1 above. 3. Tick off people on the database as they've voted so they can't vote twice. And just like that, most (but not all) of the "mail in ballot" concerns are rendered mute and we can all continue with trusting the election results.

I've only worked on one US election (Colorado 2014), but they did check people off a database when they voted. So some places already do this. Unfortunately that database went down multiple times during the day, leading to long queues and delays for voters.

In Australia, we do a similar check, but using paper rolls and cross-check for duplicates afterwards. No computer to go down means no delays. If they find a duplicate they investigate, and if there's ever enough to make a difference, they would re-run the election in that area. Once we lost a box of votes and they had to re-run the election across a whole state to make sure.

Re: Looking for Voter Fraud (In Old Elections) with Data Visualization

#210

Post by vkou »

zo1 wrote: post #174
maxerickson wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What 'modern improvements' can be made over paper ballots?

No one likes to hear these, but some simple ones to try: 1. Central database of all citizens. (Can be state-level if you want to do that). 2. Require voter-ID to link against 1 above. 3. Tick off people on the database as they've voted so they can't vote twice. And just like that, most (but not all) of the "mail in ballot" concerns are rendered mute and we can all continue with trusting the election results.

1. Already exist in various forms, for the purposes of voting.

2. See #1.

3. When people vote by mail, they get ticked off in #1. This doesn't happen immediately, because mail-in ballots can be claimed lost or found to be spoiled (with opportunity for correction), and because they have to be cross-referenced against in-person votes - which is why it takes days or weeks for all ballots to be tallied.

People running elections aren't stupid. They've already thought of all this.

Unfortunately, the barrier to making false or completely unsubstantiated allegations about wide-spread voter fraud is zero, so every Tom, Dick, and Harry is currently throwing in their two cents on the matter. (Bonus points if they don't actually understand, or actively pretend to mis-understand how the process currently works.)

I'd give those claims the time of day when their proponents are ready to put some skin in the game, and swear on them under penalty of perjury.

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