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About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

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Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#311

Post by creata »

echelon wrote: post #223
yakz wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can build on it... developers have been building on it for years and making money doing it. Don't make an app that allows users to run unapproved software. I think that's a pretty clear rule. If your app makes money (directly or indirectly), pay Apple whatever portion of your revenue that Apple demands. I also think that's a pretty clear rule. If there's something that should obviously be regulated out of existe…

Stop defending Apple and their shitty behavior. > unapproved software > unapproved software > unapproved software > unapproved software How is it 2020 and we're okay with this phrase? What the hell happened? Apple is an enemy of computing and the DOJ needs to break them up.

If people want Apple to treat them like children, why should we stop them? I'm not being sarcastic — there may be good reasons we don't want Apple to coddle the public, but I have yet to see them.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#312

Post by zepto »

zakki wrote: post #307
zepto wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do what you want with your phone. You have a legal right to jailbreak it and hack on it in any way you like.

Jailbreak is not consumer friendly. Which is not Apple way, is it?

That’s irrelevant - the point is that RonanTheGrey can actually do whatever they want with the phone they own.

They have the legal right.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#313

Post by RonanTheGrey »

zepto wrote: post #251
echelon wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You just need to not buy an Apple product. Consumer behavior won't change Apple. We need the strong arm of the DOJ to tell Apple not to do this. > Apple is a friend Apple is not a friend of anybody. They're a for-profit company.

I’m not suggesting consumer behavior should change Apple. I’m suggesting that consumers should buy a product that that suits their needs. If you need alternate stores - buy Android. There is no reason at all for Apple to be forced to do anything.

> I’m suggesting that consumers should buy a product that that suits their needs.

It's cute you think this is why people buy things.

Also, you're completely missing the point here. Developers have no choice but to developer for Apple and that means that whatever Apple says, Apple gets. That's called bullying, at the very least, and I'm not alone in asserting that it extends into behavior that should at least be regulated.

Mind you, the only reason I think so is that their user base exceeds 1 billion users. There's a public interest in things when numbers are that big. If we were talking about some company with only a million users, the case would be much weaker.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#314

Post by RonanTheGrey »

zepto wrote: post #247
RonanTheGrey wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd still like a good explanation why I can't do what I want with my phone. You don't want do to that? Good, don't. Make it so that I can, if I have to tick a box somewhere hidden in Apple's labyrinthine and undiscoverable Settings app. Of course, we already know the answer why I can't do what I want with my phone, because it isn't my phone, is it, Apple continues to think of it as theirs and they simply grudgingly r…

You can do what you want with your phone. You have a legal right to jailbreak it and hack on it in any way you like.

Ok. I want to run iSh by installing it from the developer's signed build. That's what I want to do. Can I do that?

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#315

Post by zepto »

echelon wrote: post #291
burnte wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t want my non-technical family members being persuaded to install other stores. On Android this isn't an issue, you leave sideloading disabled. Apple could use the same method. Apple could even make you use XCode to unlock the ability. But locking it entirely is obnoxious.

Bingo! This option doesn't open a black hole that suddenly swallows your grandparents. Where are all the people begging for Google to close this?

They bought iPhones.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#316

Post by jagger27 »

heavensgateboy wrote: post #275
jagger27 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iSH is an open source hobby project, not a product. I fail to see how what you accuse Hey of as fraud and artificial discourse either.

“Hey” very clearly gamed an Apple TOS violation to increase the visibility of their project as a marketing stunt during its launch. This practice is becoming increasingly common as companies try to position themselves as being relatable to average users. It’s free publicity, integrates into a hotly debated topic poll, and garners a lot of commentary which can be easily driven by shills.

Since when is violating a ToS fraud? Marketing stunt, maybe.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#317

Post by zepto »

strken wrote: post #300
zepto wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s absolutely my decision by to make if they ask me to recommend something to them. Especially if they have been having problems with malware and that’s why they are asking. If they own the device they get to use it as it was designed to be used. They also have the legal right to change it themselves (at least in the US). What you don’t have is any basis for forcing Apple to design software the way you want, or to…

There's a pretty clear reason for passing legislation to force Apple to allow third party stores, and I think it has been explained well in the parent comments: some people believe users should control their devices. There are also pretty clear reasons for not doing so: other people believe Apple should control its devices. Politicians can legislate things. They already get to dictate how parties interact. I'm not su…

This is not an accurate representation of reality.

Users simply cannot control their devices. No individual can no matter how skilled. Software complexity moved past that point decades ago.

All we can actually do is choose who to trust when we acquire software.

Nobody is forced to choose or trust Apple, but many do.

Since choices exist for people who want to decide for themselves who they trust to provide software, the argument cannot be about that.

The people who argue that Apple should be forced to allow third party stores are only interested in the potential commercial gain they could make if they had access to Apple’s customers.

They just want access to the customers so they can make money out of them.

That is all this argument is about and all it has ever been about.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#318

Post by ratww »

echelon wrote: post #305
ratww wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A firewall partially "fixes" part of the spying/tracking, but doesn't solve any of the other issues I pointed, especially concerning forced installation of software that screws up with my machine. Also, the fact I use a firewall doesn't excuse developers from being assholes and spying/tracking me behind my back. It's my computer, it's a developer's sacred right to have any kind of code that acts against my interests.…

To copy the argument used by Apple supporters, you can choose another bank. > It's my computer, it's a developer's sacred right to have any kind of code that acts against my interests. Apple has created an exclusionary economic zone and put 50% of Americans in it. This is unprecedented. > Also, the fact I use a firewall doesn't excuse developers from being assholes and spying/tracking me behind my back. A sandbox wil…

> To copy the argument used by Apple supporters, you can choose another bank.

Not really. I needed to be a customer of the specific bank to receive my salary. Luckily, this changed many year ago after government intervention, though. Now you're allowed to have an account in a bank other than the one chosen by your company. The problem is that every other bank still has the same requirement.

And my father still needs to be a customer of a specific bank to use government-backed credit for small companies that was best for him. There was nothing in the contract about Diebold controlling every single bit coming in or out of his computer.

> Apple has created an exclusionary economic zone and put 50% of Americans in it. This is unprecedented.

It's still not a sacred right of developers to fuck with my computer or threaten my ability to conduct business. My computer is my property, not yours or any other developers. Having asshole developers out of this zone is great for me.

I'm not saying what we have is perfect. I want more freedom, but only for myself and for other users. What I don't want is this freedom to be abused by third-parties, so that I and other users are the mercy of asshole developers, which seem to be the majority in 2020. Freedom is difficult when it comes to closed source software.

> A sandbox will protect you from everything you claim to be worried about.

Still doesn't excuse it, nor completely fixes it.

And I tried everything and couldn't find anything that works with Warsaw by Diebold, other than buying Apple stuff. If you have suggestions I'm all ears.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#319

Post by lern_too_spel »

petra wrote: post #188
mortenjorck wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is this: Do you want to build within a certain set of categories Apple unambiguously supports? If you're building a to-do app supported by a monthly subscription, there's no shifting foundation there. If you're building a free-to-play game whose in-app purchases consist of "handful of gems," "bag of gems," and "trunk of gems," you have nothing to worry about from App Review. If you're building something…

//What the App Store is definitively not, however, is conducive to innovation, experimentation, and risk-taking. Are there any signs that iOS is significantly worse than Android with regards to innovative apps?

Off the top of my head? Google Photos is actually usable, there are many options for game streaming and emulation, PWAs work, Termux (think iSH but significantly faster) works, transparently proxying phone calls through Google Voice or other services works, browser extensions work, on-device system-wide ad-blocking is available, and there are multiple options for driving infotainment (including Android Auto) without a head unit in the car. It is enough of a gap that I have never considered using an iOS device even though they're offered to me for free.

Some major pieces that are missing from both are the ability for user-installed apps to auto-update without using the system app stores and the ability for a user-installed app to process call audio.

Re: About iSH’s pending removal from the App Store

#320

Post by teruakohatu »

banana_giraffe wrote: post #151

> Soon after we released iSH without apk, we found users who had figured out a way to get apk back using wget and were posting about this throughout the internet. We suspect this was the reason why our rejection notice mentioned wget specifically As the writer of one of the links in that sentence, I almost feel bad for making the post I did. Almost. If I hadn't someone else would have, clearly. I'm not some super hac…

Why feel bad? It allowed me to run R, sandboxed, on my iPad. The world was a better place for a couple of weeks.
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