Live data from Hacker News

The impact of school shutdown on sleep in adolescents: a natural experiment

sciencedirect.com

11–20 of 60 posts

Re: The impact of school shutdown on sleep in adolescents: a natural experiment

#11
post #9

I wonder if the youthful predilection for “sleep late, be active in the late evening” is some sort of evolutionary adaptation. Night raids, the young being tasked with the most annoying night-shifts... All pure speculation, but there must be something more than “kids are lazy and then they ‘grow’ out of it” - if anything because some people ( cough cough ) never actually do.

I think the simple answer is just that children need more sleep than adults. It’s not just about a different schedule. The National Sleep Foundation recommends[1] 9-11 hours for school-aged children and 8-10 for teenagers.

[1] https://www.sleephealthjournal.org/article/S2352-7218(15)000...

Re: The impact of school shutdown on sleep in adolescents: a natural experiment

#12
post #4
post #3

N=45. Interesting idea though.

N=45 is relatively high power for simple analyses, like a t-test (not sure if that's what the paper did). You can detect an effect size of 0.6 with 80% power when N is 45. You can also detect a effect of 0.7 with 90% power at N=45. There are other things that can make results unreliable, like p-hacking, but a sample size of 45 is not a sufficient condition for bad science.

N=45 school-age children suggests that you had some serious problem with randomly selecting them; as does 32/45 girls (p<0.01) and 96% caucasian (p<0.005 against the general population of Montréal).

Re: The impact of school shutdown on sleep in adolescents: a natural experiment

#13
post #9

I wonder if the youthful predilection for “sleep late, be active in the late evening” is some sort of evolutionary adaptation. Night raids, the young being tasked with the most annoying night-shifts... All pure speculation, but there must be something more than “kids are lazy and then they ‘grow’ out of it” - if anything because some people ( cough cough ) never actually do.

Actually your speculation is a good one.

From the book Why we sleep, by Matthew Walker, it's reported that teenager's circadian rhythm is different from the one of their younger siblings. It's shifted progressively forward, so forward that it passes even the timing of adults.

This is something wired in their brain and should be addressed when setting school times.

Moreover, Walker also proposes a socio-evolutionary explanation of why adolescent sleep schedule is shifted:

"Central to the goal of adolescent development is the transition from parental dependence to independence, all the while learning to navigate the complexities of peer-group relationships and interactions.

One way in which Mother Nature has perhaps helped adolescents unbuckle themselves from their parents is to march their circadian rhythms forward in time, past that of their adult mothers and fathers.

This ingenious biological solution selectively shifts teenagers to a later phase when they can, for several hours, operate independently—and do so as a peer-group collective.

It is not a permanent or full dislocation from parental care, but as safe an attempt at partially separating soon-to-be adults from the eyes of Mother and Father. There is risk, of course. But the transition must happen. And the time of day when those independent adolescent wings unfold, and the first solo flights from the parental nest occur, is not a time of day at all, but rather a time of night, thanks to a forward-shifted circadian rhythm."

edit: putted a little more space in between sentences

Re: The impact of school shutdown on sleep in adolescents: a natural experiment

#14
post #5

AIUI teenagers in USA start school early so they can reuse the same school buses for younger children, it's a cost cutting measure most of all

Also so students are at school before parents need to be at work. School is child care for a lot of parents.

Re: The impact of school shutdown on sleep in adolescents: a natural experiment

#16

So, I agree it's an interesting idea, and I think this small study could hopefully spur more conclusive ones, but... 1) N=45 2) based on "semi-structured phone interview" Neither of these is a deal-breaker, but what you'd really prefer is some sort of objective measure of sleep quantity, and how it impacted the person. Teenagers are, by and large, entirely aware that when adults ask them questions, they are likely to…

Agreed with all points. I often find that these sorts of observational studies with weak methods that provide evidence for something the unblinded study participants would want to support (e.g., this study, observational studies of the effect of reduced workweek hours on productivity, many of the observational basic income studies) are really hard to evaluate fairly. It becomes easy to latch onto the conclusions when the intervention is one you're predisposed to believe in and to latch onto the methodological weaknesses when it's one you start of opposed towards, and so I feel like they don't really advance science forward at all.

Re: The impact of school shutdown on sleep in adolescents: a natural experiment

#17
post #5

AIUI teenagers in USA start school early so they can reuse the same school buses for younger children, it's a cost cutting measure most of all

Also so students are at school before parents need to be at work. School is child care for a lot of parents.

If our society took a chill pill with all the 'stranger danger' fear mongering, we could simply let kids walk themselves to school, as was once common not too long ago.

Re: The impact of school shutdown on sleep in adolescents: a natural experiment

#18
post #16

So, I agree it's an interesting idea, and I think this small study could hopefully spur more conclusive ones, but... 1) N=45 2) based on "semi-structured phone interview" Neither of these is a deal-breaker, but what you'd really prefer is some sort of objective measure of sleep quantity, and how it impacted the person. Teenagers are, by and large, entirely aware that when adults ask them questions, they are likely to…

Agreed with all points. I often find that these sorts of observational studies with weak methods that provide evidence for something the unblinded study participants would want to support (e.g., this study, observational studies of the effect of reduced workweek hours on productivity, many of the observational basic income studies) are really hard to evaluate fairly. It becomes easy to latch onto the conclusions when…

I think it's useful to think of studies like this as a MVP. They're relatively cheap and fast. If they give a null result, you've failed fast. If they give a non-null, then you can invest in further study and iterate.

Re: The impact of school shutdown on sleep in adolescents: a natural experiment

#19
post #5

AIUI teenagers in USA start school early so they can reuse the same school buses for younger children, it's a cost cutting measure most of all

Also sports! This is a big one, as high school sports are the lifeblood of many a small town. Ending school early lets kids cram in their 2+ hours of bashing each other's heads in for the amusement and profit of locals before they do 2+ hours of homework.

Re: The impact of school shutdown on sleep in adolescents: a natural experiment

#20
post #19
post #5

AIUI teenagers in USA start school early so they can reuse the same school buses for younger children, it's a cost cutting measure most of all

Also sports! This is a big one, as high school sports are the lifeblood of many a small town. Ending school early lets kids cram in their 2+ hours of bashing each other's heads in for the amusement and profit of locals before they do 2+ hours of homework.

When I was on the swim team, we often had practice in the morning before class. If school started later, morning practice would be even easier (as it was, we were waking up at something like 5am for that.) And competitions can easily be on Saturdays, they needn't be after school on a weekday.
Post reply on HN