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Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.

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Re: Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.

#731
post #659

OK, so the transition from Make America Great Again slogan to Make America Decent Again (and Better) reality is inevitable and welcome. It is easy to get overjoyed by results of the U.S. Presidential Election (and some celebration certainly is in order). Uniting the country is definitely a commendable goal, though it is easier said than done. The election results across all levels clearly illustrate just how divided…

Is there really any common ground? My experience talking to the other side during this administration is that they are completely unable and often unwilling to consider any argument or information that conflicts with their views. How do you debate with people who don't care about facts or reason? In addition their leadership appears to be completely unwilling to act and good faith and the rank in file appear unwillin…

My experience talking to the other side during this administration is that they are completely unable and often unwilling to consider any argument or information that conflicts with their views. How do you debate with people who don't care about facts or reason?

Your comment about "facts or reason" is sort of odd given your post gives no details concerning what you consider these to be. I mean, I could fill in some but it seems like without you giving a clue as to what you're referring to, people can only shout for you or against you.

Re: Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.

#732

Trump has been blatantly slandered by the mainstream media as racist evil orange man, it was 4 years of '1984' style brainwashing by the left. One of the big reasons for voting Trump was standing up against this propaganda machine, lies, censorship and intimidation. 70M people thankfully did just that, which gives hope in the future of this country.

As a registered democrat, I too am ashamed at the last four years of slander.

Re: Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.

#733
post #712

The country may be divided. But those divisions are manufactured and exacerbated over the last 4 years by a made-for-TV president. I couldn't help but think, in looking at various TV news channels this past week, that this is all sport. Big numbers on the score board and the play-by-play constantly flashing on the screens. We're the spectators, and the politicians are players on the field. Trump played the field bett…

Trump was attempting to fix the broken H1-B Visa system, raising the wages that one must earn which is only a start.

H1-B Visa, by law, is only for those jobs where there are no Americans to fill the role, eg. theoretical physicist PhD with masters in data science.

But firms and hospitals use this to get foreigners at cheaper wages to supplant Americans from their jobs from programmers to doctors (MDs).

Biden, Schumer, Harris, all wish to make the job market and wages worse for American STEM workers/doctors (MDs).

During the 2016 primaries, when Disney CEO Bob Iger replaced about 200 American STEM workers with H1-B Visa abuse replacements, it was Trump and Sanders who complained vociferously about the illegal use of H1-B, which the Obama DOJ did nothing about, perhaps because Clinton received a $100,000 donation from the same Bob Iger for the Hilary Victory Fund.

Trump recently fired the CEO of the federal TVA for attempting to replace 200 American STEM workers H1-B Visa abuse foreigners and then made an exec order to prohibit any federal agency from doing so.

Biden, Schumer want to increase the number of H1-B Visas (Schumer wants to triple them). VP (and former Sen Harris) was Democratic sponsor of senate bill S.386 which seeks to double the number of Indians who get green cards.

The moves of Trump helps Americans. The moves of Biden, Schumer, Harris harms Americans.

Those are the facts, irrefutable, as have been presented above. So, ask yourself, do I want an American President that give in to donors like Bob Iger and brings more foreigners into the country or do I want someone like Trump, who cannot be bribed and does what is best for Americans and not foreigners.

Re: Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.

#734
post #712

The country may be divided. But those divisions are manufactured and exacerbated over the last 4 years by a made-for-TV president. I couldn't help but think, in looking at various TV news channels this past week, that this is all sport. Big numbers on the score board and the play-by-play constantly flashing on the screens. We're the spectators, and the politicians are players on the field. Trump played the field bett…

> We're actually all rooting for the same things here.

It's not helping anything to pretend this is true. For example, consider the spectrum of reactions you witness among your peers, not to mention on social media, the next time there's a high profile killing of an unarmed person of color by police officers. I don't think woo, it's great that we all want the same things is the feeling you're going to get.

Re: Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.

#735
post #659

OK, so the transition from Make America Great Again slogan to Make America Decent Again (and Better) reality is inevitable and welcome. It is easy to get overjoyed by results of the U.S. Presidential Election (and some celebration certainly is in order). Uniting the country is definitely a commendable goal, though it is easier said than done. The election results across all levels clearly illustrate just how divided…

Is there really any common ground? My experience talking to the other side during this administration is that they are completely unable and often unwilling to consider any argument or information that conflicts with their views. How do you debate with people who don't care about facts or reason? In addition their leadership appears to be completely unwilling to act and good faith and the rank in file appear unwillin…

> Is there really any common ground?

Some policies, when detached from political partisanship, could be appreciated by voters on both sides.

For instance, for those who believe in human rights and social justice (a supposedly 'left' concern), there's good cause for opposition to China. In terms of jobs and national security, wresting some of China's high-tech manufacturing capability back within US borders would be a boon for employment across 'middle-America' (a supposedly 'right' concern). More importantly, I think both the concerns of human rights, and the employment of your fellow citizens, should not be a partisan issue.

I think most people want the world to be a better place to live, with better human rights, and a wage. Allowing China to gain leverage on the world, despite a track record of human rights abuses, and building a trade deficit with them, isn't really in the general voters interest.

And this is just one example. I'm sure there's more common ground if you look just at policy.

Re: Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.

#736
post #659

OK, so the transition from Make America Great Again slogan to Make America Decent Again (and Better) reality is inevitable and welcome. It is easy to get overjoyed by results of the U.S. Presidential Election (and some celebration certainly is in order). Uniting the country is definitely a commendable goal, though it is easier said than done. The election results across all levels clearly illustrate just how divided…

Is there really any common ground? My experience talking to the other side during this administration is that they are completely unable and often unwilling to consider any argument or information that conflicts with their views. How do you debate with people who don't care about facts or reason? In addition their leadership appears to be completely unwilling to act and good faith and the rank in file appear unwillin…

There’s a slate star codex post that describes research demonstrating that conservative Americans can predict the responses of progressive Americans to political questions, but the converse is not true. It’s not that conservatives are “unwilling to consider” conflicting ideas; in fact, they do a much better job of modeling conflicting ideas than progressives do!

Most of the difference is, I think, not based on factual disagreement, but based on principal disagreements on issues like the personhood of fetuses.

Re: Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.

#737
post #712

The country may be divided. But those divisions are manufactured and exacerbated over the last 4 years by a made-for-TV president. I couldn't help but think, in looking at various TV news channels this past week, that this is all sport. Big numbers on the score board and the play-by-play constantly flashing on the screens. We're the spectators, and the politicians are players on the field. Trump played the field bett…

I disagree. I see a narcissist and a buffoon when I look at Trump, but none of his behavior validates anything close to the crazed response we see from the primarily left-leaning mainstream media.

It's been a constant stream of catastrophizing from them for the last four years. It was like this during the Bush years as well, though they do seem to have perfected it.

Re: Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.

#739

Now we can get back to destabilizing the Mideast, offshoring our manufacturing jobs, starting more endless wars and transferring the rest of our technology to China. The Trump years were just a speed bump on the way to complete globalization.

What is your preferred solution to those problems?

Re: Biden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.

#740

My biggest concern is how seemingly so many conservative people are becoming huge conspiracy theorists. I don't mean normal conspiracy theories like there being something more behind the JFK assassination, but like QAnon, Bill Gates injecting people with microchips, Pizzagate, etc. A lot of people in my own family in a rather backwards state believe that stuff. It's making me completely lose faith in this country and…

You can have the bravery to understand that there are nuggets of truth in even what you may consider the crazier conspiracy theories, and then to follow up with researching and understanding psychological operations both the history and current extent therefor (of what we know), so that you can come to the table both with a) uncomfortable to you facts, and b) knowledge of how those psyops are used on the populace (which in particular gives one a better understanding/empathy with those who buy into xyz).

The media told everyone not in the conspiracy realm about how pizzagate was false, and it likely is, but only to an extent. But wait, I can feel the recoil already, just a moment. For those of us in the conspiracy realm, who know about the real use of children for blackmail operations mostly by intelligence agencies but also by organized crime, pizzagate suddenly becomes much more plausible (note I didn't say real). It's not a popular position because most people simply don't want to know how dark the world really is. The framing of Epstein as some one off independent abuser is actually part of the coverup of just one middle manager in one of said blackmail rings. He ran girls, others run boys. Top level politicians and businessmen are targets for leverage. If you balk at even this assertion just because of the "crazy by association" to pizzagate, take the time to lookup: The Dutroux Affair, aka Belgiums X-Files, The Franklin Scandal, the Finders Scandal, Roy Cohn (Trumps mentor)... as just a start. Also note: wikipedia will not provide good information on these kinds of topics. If one were to look at the entry for the Franklin Scandal without digging further, one would probably walk away thinking it was a hoax, which isn't the truth at all.

On the topic of psyops, one of the most used techniques is called the "limited hangout". I usually use the flat earth conspiracy as an example of this. Of course it is quite assinine, and should generally just be ignored as such, an analysis will show that those who talk about it (I would posit are often not organic), also talk about much more legitimate conspiracy theories. The intent is to make the more legitimate conspiracy theories discredited as crazy by association. Qanon is such an operation. It took what could have been a movement against the blackmail networks that have infiltrated and compromised huge amounts of business and politicians on both sides of the isle, and turned it into a partisan, quasi-religious outlet that goes nowhere, but always promises something is about to happen (keeping the partipants hopeful and distracted from more meaningful action) with the added side-bonus of being one of the best honeypots for metadata on those types in existence.

The Bill Gates topic is another good example. It's easy to kneejerk dismiss those concerns as they sound quite outlandish... but again, there is at least a modicum of truth, or rather, a handful of reasons people should be much more skeptical of the intentions of Bill Gates on the topic. For example, Bill Gates had quite an extensive relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, something a cursory search on the topic from mainstream sources will give nothing more than a passing mention. He had a relatively sordid relationship with the pharma industry in India, one worth digging into. On the "microchip" thing, another great example. Gate's related foundations and companies have openly talked about the quantum dot system, which is just readable markers to identify who has had a particular vaccine, and have actively partnered with the pentagon and darpa, and the ID2020 program is being tested on newborns in Bangladesh and homelss people in Austin, TX already. Those kinds of assocation alone are enough to at least empathize and understand where those who then take that and buy into the microchips story are coming from. So while it's untrue that the Gate's linked programs intend to put microchips in, the talk of digital certificates linked to biometrics such as quantum dot scare people, and then combine that with the fact that DARPA and the pentagon have been investigating such microchips, along with a history of medically experimenting on humans without consent, it's easy to see the jump to conclusions being made.

Given the huge amount of propaganda being heaped on the American public from all sides then, I think you should reconsider judging so harshly those who have fallen victim to that propaganda, and instead should focus on the purveyors and originators of that propaganda. To be frank, I also find this disproportionate judging of people in the current day to be very unprincipled also. We can invade countries illegally, murder hundreds of thousands of people abroad... and crickets... but talk about how the same engine that did that abroad is now turning it's eye of sauron back towards us, inward, and you must be a batshit crazy conspiracy theorist. To just now be losing faith in America/it's people is myopic at best. Try to judge a bit less, and exercise a bit more empathy and even sympathy for those who have fallen for the untrue (which is literally all of us, to some degree), and understand the outlandish might not be as unplausible as you might think, and you will be on a better path to engaging genuinely with such people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-GppBpUeYg

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