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Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

arstechnica.com

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Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#151

Isn’t Seattle in shambles because they no longer arrest drug users? I know that this stuff seems like a good idea when it’s theoretical and it doesn’t happen near you but when it’s your neighbor doing heroin and the police won’t do anything about it, you start to wish that drug use wasn’t so normalized. I used to live in Salem. Used to be extremely crime-free with very few homeless. Now, they line the streets of down…

What business is it of yours if your neighbor is doing heroin? We could get people off the streets if we gave them treatment. A drug addicts are sick; Locking them in jail shouldn’t be the answer

Easy to say when it’s not your neighbor. Come back to me when you’re letting your daughter walk home from school past the junkie house.

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of existing drug laws in America is to give police the means to harass minorities though. See: https://archive.attn.com/stories/1503/war-on-drugs-real-reas... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/real-reasons-marijuana-is-ban... http://www.history.com/news/why-the-u-s-made-marijuana-illeg... https://www.salon.com/2015/07/02/the_real_reason_marijuana_i... (though this one pretty much reiterates the attn article)…

So what’s the purpose of them in Japan?

Most of them were instated after the US occupation of Japan post-world war 2. At the time they served the purpose of asserting America's control over Japan. What purpose they serve there now, who knows?

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#153
post #23

I've mentioned this elsewhere, and I say this believing that substance abuse is a public health problem and not a criminal one, but: I'm not sure it's the best idea to give a bunch of people stuck living a lonely life in the suburbs, addicted to social media, and have to pay for their own healthcare, an easier path to hard drugs like heroin. There is no doubt in my mind that decriminalization will make these types of…

You're not wrong, but arresting people for possession doesn't help them either. And I can definitely tell you drugs aren't hard to find as it is.

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#154
post #107
post #4

Could this be a situation where politicians have faulty data and use that to guide how they act? I would have assumed that a majority of these states - and my home state of NJ - would be very anti-drug but these votes with >60% in favor of legalization show that significant portions of America think drug-related activities are not "immoral" or "wrong" and should not be criminalized. If you had asked me a few years ag…

> of all of the politicians who advocated for legalization of drugs, very very few got elected. It has long been my opinion that if people voted on individual issues instead of representatives, this would be a very different country because no politician's views match the majority of the populace. So people have to pick best-of-the-worst, a politician whose views match a handful of the issues they care about, which c…

Yes. This is the way that the public choice theory of government explains the success of special interest groups - an issue may have a majority of voters against it but if a small minority care enough about it to change their votes over it (whereas the majority who disagree are unlikely to do so because they don’t care enough about it), it can make sense for politicians to offer strong support to unpopular special interest positions.

I suppose there’s a sort of deranged case where every issue a politician supports falls into this category though it’s probably not the norm.

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#155
post #4

Could this be a situation where politicians have faulty data and use that to guide how they act? I would have assumed that a majority of these states - and my home state of NJ - would be very anti-drug but these votes with >60% in favor of legalization show that significant portions of America think drug-related activities are not "immoral" or "wrong" and should not be criminalized. If you had asked me a few years ag…

The war on drugs was started as a way to target people of color by Nixon. Before then, MJ was around and used, it is a plant and good pain killer that you can grow yourself. And Nixon stated that is why he was doing it in the White House tapes. For 50 years the WoD was used to justify invading other countries and setting up coups and all that has lead to our current issue with powerful militarized Narco gangs and all…

>...The war on drugs was started as a way to target people of color by Nixon. Before then, MJ was around and used, it is a plant and good pain killer that you can grow yourself. And Nixon stated that is why he was doing it in the White House tapes.

Where in the tapes does Nixon say the war on drugs was started as a way to target people of color?

Usually when I've seen people make the claim that Nixon used the rhetoric of a 'war on drugs' to target people of color, it is the Baum quote where he is allegedly quoting Ehrlichman. That quote is brought up often but it should be taken with some skepticism. As user GatorD42 pointed out when this was brought up before:

>...Baum claims Ehrlichman said that to him in 1994 while he was researching for a book he published in 1996 about the drug war. He didn't include the quote in that book, but instead published it in 2012 and again in 2016, after Ehrlichman had died (in 1999).

This is a very explosive quote - if Baum had included it in his book in 1996 I am sure it would have garnered a huge amount of attention for the book. Instead Baum did not include it in his book, but instead would wait for decades later when Ehrlichman was no longer around to dispute the quote. The surviving members of his family also don't believe he made the quote:

>...Multiple family members of Ehrlichman (who died in 1999) challenge the veracity of the quote: The 1994 alleged 'quote' we saw repeated in social media for the first time today does not square with what we know of our father...We do not subscribe to the alleged racist point of view that this writer now implies 22 years following the so-called interview of John and 16 years following our father's death, when dad can no longer respond.[22]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ehrlichman

At any rate, if the quote was actually said by Ehrlichman, it isn't a very accurate description of the overall drug polices of the Nixon administration. While Nixon is remembered for "war on drugs" rhetoric, the actual substance of his policies seem to be different than what people think it was:

>...I have been fortunate over the years to discuss the distorted memory of Nixon's drug policies with almost all of his key advisors as well as with historians. Their consensus is that because he was dramatically expanding the U.S. treatment system (by 350% in just 18 months!) and cutting criminal penalties, he had to reassure his right wing that he hadn’t gone soft. So he laid on some of the toughest anti-drug rhetoric in history, including making a White House speech declaring a “war on drugs” and calling drugs “public enemy number one”. It worked so well as cover that many people remember that “tough” press event and forget that what Nixon did at it was introduce not a general or a cop or a preacher to be his drug policy chief but…a medical doctor (Jerry Jaffe, a sweet, bookish man who had longish hair and sideburns and often wore the Mickey Mouse tie his kids had given him).

https://www.samefacts.com/who-started-the-war-on-drugs/

>..."Enforcement must be coupled with a rational approach to the reclamation of the drug user himself," Nixon told Congress in 1971. "We must rehabilitate the drug user if we are to eliminate drug abuse and all the antisocial activities that flow from drug abuse."

>The numbers back this up. According to the federal government's budget numbers for anti-drug programs, the "demand" side of the war on drugs (treatment, education, and prevention) consistently got more funding during Nixon's time in office (1969 to 1974) than the "supply" side (law enforcement and interdiction).

https://www.vox.com/2016/3/29/11325750/nixon-war-on-drugs

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#156
post #59
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP's comment can of course be read more correctly as "the purpose of existing drug laws (in the US) , ..."

Sweden has harsh drug laws too. So does China. The point is that there are other reasons people favor drug laws, since many homogenous countries have them too.

I'd take 10 years in a swedish prison over 3 months in a US prison...

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#157
post #95
post #4

Could this be a situation where politicians have faulty data and use that to guide how they act? I would have assumed that a majority of these states - and my home state of NJ - would be very anti-drug but these votes with >60% in favor of legalization show that significant portions of America think drug-related activities are not "immoral" or "wrong" and should not be criminalized. If you had asked me a few years ag…

> If you had asked me a few years ago if I thought this was what the general American populous thought I'd have said no because, of all of the politicians who advocated for legalization of drugs, very very few got elected. Compare this with the legalization of gay marriage. As late as the mid-2000s it was considered (national-level) political suicide to publicly support gay marriage. Even plenty of politicians that m…

Both cases are well explained by the Overton Window.

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The war on drugs was started as a way to target people of color by Nixon. Before then, MJ was around and used, it is a plant and good pain killer that you can grow yourself. And Nixon stated that is why he was doing it in the White House tapes. For 50 years the WoD was used to justify invading other countries and setting up coups and all that has lead to our current issue with powerful militarized Narco gangs and all…

And it was stepped up by Clinton/Biden in the 1990s with the crime bill. There is plenty of blame to pass around for the situation we are in today. Arguing about who started it decades ago is not very helpful.

Similar to the Chesterton Fence example, knowing the history of something helps me understand if there was any good thinking behind it. For marijuana prohibition, it doesn't seem like there was.

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#159
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think drug use is immoral, especially in a society with a welfare system. (That’s the basis for anti-drug attitudes in places like Sweden.) I’m against harsh drug laws because I think they’re create a lot of problems in criminal justice and are abused against Black communities.

What is your opinion of Alcohol, lower grade stimulates (Caffeine), and pre-processed unnatural addictive substances (pure sugar)? If you are on welfare should you be prohibited from drinking alcohol? What about eating low nutritional value fast foods? Obesity and alcoholism is far more rampant than most drugs used in the war on drugs. In America ~40% of our population was obese in 2016 [0], ~25% of people drank >5 d…

> alcoholism is far more rampant than most drugs used in the war on drugs

Unfair comparison. Alcohol is legalized and freely available. Let's compare alcohol and drugs at times, when drugs were free to use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars .

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