Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health • Hacker News Board

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#141

Post by kortilla » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 6:25 PM UTC

intricatedetail wrote: post #44

ericmay wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea but you can also say criminalization has worked extremely well. Singapore for example. What I worry about here is another instance of treating symptoms instead of causes. Why do people feel like they need to use drugs like heroin? > The law provides a lot of additional funding to mental health and substance abuse programs, which could actually help people in those situations. So if I want healthcare I should get…

Can you write more about Singapore? My view is that when drug laws are very harsh, then people will less likely admit to use and dealers will use more precautions. Since drug use is mostly estimated based on surveys and police report you may see the policy effective on paper, but the reality may be far different. It is a natural instinct to use drugs akin to listening to music or having sex for pleasure. If you ban m…

> It is a natural instinct to use drugs

Citation? I’m not particularly tempted to try heroin. What’s wrong with me?

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#142

Post by fishtockos » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 6:26 PM UTC

downrightmike wrote: post #11

gravypod wrote: post #4

Could this be a situation where politicians have faulty data and use that to guide how they act? I would have assumed that a majority of these states - and my home state of NJ - would be very anti-drug but these votes with >60% in favor of legalization show that significant portions of America think drug-related activities are not "immoral" or "wrong" and should not be criminalized. If you had asked me a few years ag…

The war on drugs was started as a way to target people of color by Nixon. Before then, MJ was around and used, it is a plant and good pain killer that you can grow yourself. And Nixon stated that is why he was doing it in the White House tapes. For 50 years the WoD was used to justify invading other countries and setting up coups and all that has lead to our current issue with powerful militarized Narco gangs and all…

Do you have a source for your claims that "[t]he war on drugs was started as a way to target people of color by Nixon", and especially that Nixon admitted it on the WH tapes? As far as I'm aware the latter is completely false, and the former is generally thought to be mostly false as well (though Nixon was certainly racist). This myth seems to have started with the alleged John Ehrlichman quote from '94 - it's not generally given much credence.

I look forward to your reply

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#143

Post by ogre_codes » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 6:28 PM UTC

gravypod wrote: post #4

Could this be a situation where politicians have faulty data and use that to guide how they act? I would have assumed that a majority of these states - and my home state of NJ - would be very anti-drug but these votes with >60% in favor of legalization show that significant portions of America think drug-related activities are not "immoral" or "wrong" and should not be criminalized. If you had asked me a few years ag…

It's a lot harder for law enforcement and DAs to claim they are "Tough on Crime" when arrests are down significantly because they can only issue a citation for possession. Likewise, it's difficult to justify increasing prison/ jail budgets when they aren't packed with minor drug offenders.

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#144

Post by knolax » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 6:34 PM UTC

jimbob45 wrote: post #122

Isn’t Seattle in shambles because they no longer arrest drug users? I know that this stuff seems like a good idea when it’s theoretical and it doesn’t happen near you but when it’s your neighbor doing heroin and the police won’t do anything about it, you start to wish that drug use wasn’t so normalized. I used to live in Salem. Used to be extremely crime-free with very few homeless. Now, they line the streets of down…

A city in the US having a large homeless population is actually an indicator of a (relatively) stronger economy. Booming Economy --> Housing Inflation --> Large Homeless Population. I've seen far fewer homeless in Baltimore than in SF but average income in the latter is 2x.

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#145

Post by jniedrauer » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 6:35 PM UTC

jimbob45 wrote: post #122

Isn’t Seattle in shambles because they no longer arrest drug users? I know that this stuff seems like a good idea when it’s theoretical and it doesn’t happen near you but when it’s your neighbor doing heroin and the police won’t do anything about it, you start to wish that drug use wasn’t so normalized. I used to live in Salem. Used to be extremely crime-free with very few homeless. Now, they line the streets of down…

Seattle is in the middle of a housing boom, unfortunately for anyone who wants to move there.

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#146

Post by ogre_codes » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 6:35 PM UTC

dantheman wrote: post #84

viraptor wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> could also be argued that legalizing drugs is an attack in minorities who are disproportionately poor and thus prone to consumption Legalising the production and sale - yes, that would be possible. But legalising use and possession is very far from that. It opens the doors for better social approach to the problems and helps keep families together.

If you legalize consumption but not production and sale - you make the black market thrive and basically sponsor organized crime. Full legalization is the only moral and practical approach.

> you make the black market thrive and basically sponsor organized crime

You aren't "Making" a market, it exists already. The difference is we are no longer severely punishing the people who are getting victimized.

> Full legalization is the only moral and practical approach.

Full legalization for most drugs, I agree (weed, LSD, shrooms, plus a few others). But I'm not sure I'd agree that all drugs should be legalized. A measured approach as we have done with MJ is a good idea.

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#147

Post by throwaway201103 » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 6:36 PM UTC

hourislate wrote: post #131

gravypod wrote: post #4

Could this be a situation where politicians have faulty data and use that to guide how they act? I would have assumed that a majority of these states - and my home state of NJ - would be very anti-drug but these votes with >60% in favor of legalization show that significant portions of America think drug-related activities are not "immoral" or "wrong" and should not be criminalized. If you had asked me a few years ag…

The only data Politicians use is campaign donation data. When you have several different industries that rely on a steady flow of meat into the grinder (Prison, Police Unions, Lawyers, Probation Officers/Administrative, etc) and they give generous support and campaign donations , well you know why it has taken so long to end this useless "War on Drugs". Millions of Tax dollars were spent incarcerating people for havi…

A lot of the draconian laws and mandatory sentences trace back to the late 1980s/early 1990s when crack cocaine hit. If you were too young to remember or not born yet, it was absolutely devastating. At least the equivalent of today's opioid crisis if not worse. Entire neighborhoods just fell apart. Politicians and voters freaked out and demanded harsh new drug laws and penalties. Lobbiest support from those who benefited helped perpetuate this, but it got started at the time with widespread public support.

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#148

Post by ogre_codes » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 6:38 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #5

gravypod wrote: post #4

Could this be a situation where politicians have faulty data and use that to guide how they act? I would have assumed that a majority of these states - and my home state of NJ - would be very anti-drug but these votes with >60% in favor of legalization show that significant portions of America think drug-related activities are not "immoral" or "wrong" and should not be criminalized. If you had asked me a few years ag…

> Maybe now that politicians see that people are very against drug laws we'll see some of them renege on their hard anti-drug stances. The purpose of existing drug laws, especially marijuana, is to give police a reason to harass and discriminate against certain populations.

> The purpose of existing drug laws, especially marijuana, is to give police a reason to harass and discriminate against certain populations.

I've heard it argued that this is the purpose of traffic laws as well. A lot of enforcement is based on officer discretion which is IMO a moral trap.

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#149

Post by the_only_law » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 6:39 PM UTC

quattrofan wrote: post #100

Sigh. Going to be years before that happens in the UK, the Tories are still stuck in the past and listen to the Daily Mail.

I was surprised to learn from some research I did that the UK is often more strict on drugs than the US.

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#150

Post by throwaway201103 » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 6:40 PM UTC

downrightmike wrote: post #11

gravypod wrote: post #4

Could this be a situation where politicians have faulty data and use that to guide how they act? I would have assumed that a majority of these states - and my home state of NJ - would be very anti-drug but these votes with >60% in favor of legalization show that significant portions of America think drug-related activities are not "immoral" or "wrong" and should not be criminalized. If you had asked me a few years ag…

The war on drugs was started as a way to target people of color by Nixon. Before then, MJ was around and used, it is a plant and good pain killer that you can grow yourself. And Nixon stated that is why he was doing it in the White House tapes. For 50 years the WoD was used to justify invading other countries and setting up coups and all that has lead to our current issue with powerful militarized Narco gangs and all…

And it was stepped up by Clinton/Biden in the 1990s with the crime bill. There is plenty of blame to pass around for the situation we are in today. Arguing about who started it decades ago is not very helpful.