Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health • Hacker News Board

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#121

Post by bosie » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 6:00 PM UTC

gravypod wrote: post #73

rayiner wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think drug use is immoral, especially in a society with a welfare system. (That’s the basis for anti-drug attitudes in places like Sweden.) I’m against harsh drug laws because I think they’re create a lot of problems in criminal justice and are abused against Black communities.

What is your opinion of Alcohol, lower grade stimulates (Caffeine), and pre-processed unnatural addictive substances (pure sugar)? If you are on welfare should you be prohibited from drinking alcohol? What about eating low nutritional value fast foods? Obesity and alcoholism is far more rampant than most drugs used in the war on drugs. In America ~40% of our population was obese in 2016 [0], ~25% of people drank >5 d…

Not OP but how do you normalise this statement:

> Obesity and alcoholism is far more rampant than most drugs used in the war on drugs.

since ... of course alcoholism is more rampant when i can just buy it legally in the supermarket. that is a nobrainer conclusion. same for nicotine. caffeine has so little impact in a drug-related conversation that i won't even bother going there. i dont think you do yourself any favour dragging it into this discussion.

problem with 'low nutritional value fast foods' is that eating is a necessity. you need your X calories a day. drugs (nicotine, alcohol, heroine, prescription drugs,...) on the other hand are purely optional (genuine medical reasons aside). so the process of consuming food can't be dropped similar to how you could just not drink alcohol. that leads to a complicated question as you need to substitute the low nutritional value fast foods with something more substantive. this leads you to evaluate the entire process of food consumption, from agriculture to purchasing decisions to prep work to marketing to food labelling etc.

> If you are on welfare should you be prohibited from drinking alcohol? What about eating low nutritional value fast foods?

because of the above i don't think those two things are comparable at all.

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#122

Post by jimbob45 » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 6:02 PM UTC

Isn’t Seattle in shambles because they no longer arrest drug users? I know that this stuff seems like a good idea when it’s theoretical and it doesn’t happen near you but when it’s your neighbor doing heroin and the police won’t do anything about it, you start to wish that drug use wasn’t so normalized.

I used to live in Salem. Used to be extremely crime-free with very few homeless. Now, they line the streets of downtown and no one goes there anymore. If we’re leaving drug users on the street too now, the only consequence of this policy will be more white flight. Shame, too, because Salem used to be a hidden gem of the Pacific NW.

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#123

Post by bnralt » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 6:02 PM UTC

Izkata wrote: post #107

gravypod wrote: post #4

Could this be a situation where politicians have faulty data and use that to guide how they act? I would have assumed that a majority of these states - and my home state of NJ - would be very anti-drug but these votes with >60% in favor of legalization show that significant portions of America think drug-related activities are not "immoral" or "wrong" and should not be criminalized. If you had asked me a few years ag…

> of all of the politicians who advocated for legalization of drugs, very very few got elected. It has long been my opinion that if people voted on individual issues instead of representatives, this would be a very different country because no politician's views match the majority of the populace. So people have to pick best-of-the-worst, a politician whose views match a handful of the issues they care about, which c…

I don't think many vote based on issues. A lot of the time, people seem to choose the candidate/community around the candidate first, then support whatever issues go with it. Even when people say they're really excited about particular policies, if you talk with them for a bit there's usually very little depth or understanding there.

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#124

Post by saiya-jin » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 6:05 PM UTC

supernova87a wrote: post #38

I'm not sure why people aren't being just a little more cautious about ballot measures like in Oregon where even heroin and such hard drugs are now decriminalized. This deserves a little more consideration about the unintended side effects of this policy, don't you think? I look at the massive illegal drug manufacturing interests (countries, cartels) who spend vast sums on getting illegal drugs to our shores. It cann…

Downvoting is also about disagreeing with opinion in discussion. You are wondering about ill effect of decriminalization of drug users - most people including me cannot fathom why the heck should users be criminalized. This policy is pure evil, didn't make any real measurable benefit to society, just filled US prisons with normal citizens who like to smoke weed or maybe do some psychedelics from time to time (clue, in country like Switzerland, around 10% of population smokes regularly and nobody really cares, its not causing any harm to society). Its great if you run a private prison or have shares of it though.

I go one step beyond and argue that soft drugs should be legal and limits should be same as for alcohol - if cigarettes and alcohol are legal, so should be weed and its variants. Or ban them all if you want to be properly fair and scientific and brace yourself for mass riots. Of course no politician would do that, thats suicide.

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#125

Post by satya71 » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 6:06 PM UTC

gravypod wrote: post #4

Could this be a situation where politicians have faulty data and use that to guide how they act? I would have assumed that a majority of these states - and my home state of NJ - would be very anti-drug but these votes with >60% in favor of legalization show that significant portions of America think drug-related activities are not "immoral" or "wrong" and should not be criminalized. If you had asked me a few years ag…

The difference is primaries vs general election. Politicians take their political positions based on primaries, since that’s the gating, and often, the deciding event for their election.

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#126

Post by jaggednad » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 6:07 PM UTC

jimbob45 wrote: post #122

Isn’t Seattle in shambles because they no longer arrest drug users? I know that this stuff seems like a good idea when it’s theoretical and it doesn’t happen near you but when it’s your neighbor doing heroin and the police won’t do anything about it, you start to wish that drug use wasn’t so normalized. I used to live in Salem. Used to be extremely crime-free with very few homeless. Now, they line the streets of down…

What business is it of yours if your neighbor is doing heroin? We could get people off the streets if we gave them treatment. A drug addicts are sick; Locking them in jail shouldn’t be the answer

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#127

Post by pstuart » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 6:08 PM UTC

zdragnar wrote: post #118

pstuart wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So was Planned Parenthood. No it wasn't: https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/08/14/43208...

Even planned parenthood has been disavowing her: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/21/nyregion/planned-parentho... In her speech the morality of birth control, she openly advocated for preventing undesirables (todays' deplorables) from procreating. Edit: NPR's cherry-picking nice sounding quotes doesn't describe the totality of the woman, her views or the organization- then, or now.

But to frame it as the reason the organization was created is fallacious.

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#128

Post by rapind » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 6:08 PM UTC

gravypod wrote: post #4

Could this be a situation where politicians have faulty data and use that to guide how they act? I would have assumed that a majority of these states - and my home state of NJ - would be very anti-drug but these votes with >60% in favor of legalization show that significant portions of America think drug-related activities are not "immoral" or "wrong" and should not be criminalized. If you had asked me a few years ag…

The reasoning behind Reagan era war on drugs is incredibly complicated but mostly horse shit.

The appearance of doing something actionable/hard lining, voter suppression, shady money, international politics, religion, misguided beliefs, big pharma, etc.

No doubt there are some real debatable concerns under all the B.S. but they aren’t the “real” why behind it.

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#129

Post by scrose » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 6:09 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #70

devenblake wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of existing drug laws in America is to give police the means to harass minorities though. See: https://archive.attn.com/stories/1503/war-on-drugs-real-reas... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/real-reasons-marijuana-is-ban... http://www.history.com/news/why-the-u-s-made-marijuana-illeg... https://www.salon.com/2015/07/02/the_real_reason_marijuana_i... (though this one pretty much reiterates the attn article)…

So what’s the purpose of them in Japan?

Japan is a different country, with different cultures, values and history. Answering ‘whataboutism’ type of questions almost always leads to an endless loop of accomplishing nothing.

What about Russia? What about China? Etc... There is no value in these questions when they have no relation to the original statement being made.

Re: Voters rejecting the war on drugs is a win for public health

#130

Post by wow_why » Sat, Nov 07, 2020, 6:09 PM UTC

jaggednad wrote: post #126

jimbob45 wrote: post #122

Isn’t Seattle in shambles because they no longer arrest drug users? I know that this stuff seems like a good idea when it’s theoretical and it doesn’t happen near you but when it’s your neighbor doing heroin and the police won’t do anything about it, you start to wish that drug use wasn’t so normalized. I used to live in Salem. Used to be extremely crime-free with very few homeless. Now, they line the streets of down…

What business is it of yours if your neighbor is doing heroin? We could get people off the streets if we gave them treatment. A drug addicts are sick; Locking them in jail shouldn’t be the answer

Homeless are the symptoms, not the disease