Earlier quoted context omitted.
What do you mean?
I guess that without a lot of optimizations, .NET will be much more performant. The lower the performance, the more servers you need and that will make it harder to manage your fleet.
Is a billion dollars worth of server lying on the ground?
331–338 of 338 posts
Re: Is a billion dollars worth of server lying on the ground?
#332Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is probably the real reason for bundled cloud provider popularity. It’s way easier for competent engineers to cut out the brigade of uninformed and cheap managers of the IT budget when you distill your specs into an AWS credit card charge. For a small startup of competent people this is unneeded, but those companies typically succeed or fail into mediocrity eventually.
It's only 80% of the reason. The other 80% is all the time wasted dealing in the physical world, moving and plugging servers. You could have the most competent engineer fully backed by the company, it's still going to take weeks to procure a goddamn server because it takes time to fight DELL and ship to the colo and have remote hands put it in place and set it up and a thousand more things.
If your requirements aren't too exotic, you can get the server in place in a day.
Compared to big cloud, you get much better CPU and RAM for your money and usually unmetered gigabit connection.
Re: Is a billion dollars worth of server lying on the ground?
#333Earlier quoted context omitted.
Except that nearly all companies greater than a certain size have an engagement with AWS so they shifted CapEx to CapEx.
> shifted CapEx to CapEx or in other words, shifted nothing?
There is others reasons for example the flexibility, the managed services, etc. but I don't think this one makes sense.
Re: Is a billion dollars worth of server lying on the ground?
#334Earlier quoted context omitted.
My experience - from doing devops consulting and moving clients off AWS every chance I get - is that it's bad business for devops consultants to move clients off AWS in terms of short term billable hours, because clients spent more money on me when they're on AWS. If I was after maximising billable hours in the short term, then I'd recommend AWS all the time... As such a lot of devops consultants certainly have all t…
When you're talking about clients spending more on you as a consultant when they are on AWS... compared to what? Alternatives like GCS? Or actual on-premises hardware? Or what? When you "move clients off AWS every chance you get", you are moving them to what instead? I'm having trouble following your theory of why having clients stay on AWS ends up leading to more consultant billable hours, I think because I don't un…
When moving them off AWS it'd usually be to managed hosting on monthly contracts.
Heroku turns expensive real fast. You're paying for AWS + their margins on top of AWS.
Managed hosting ranges from API-based provisioning not much different than AWS to ordering server by server.
In practice the amount of devops time spent dealing with the server itself for me at least is generally at most matter of downloading a bootstrap script that will provision CoreOS/Flatcar and tie it into a VPN and record the details. The rest of the job can be done by simple orchestration elsewhere. I have servers I haven't needed to touch in 5 years other than recently to switch from CoreOS to Flatcar (other than that the OS auto-updates, and everything runs in containers). Once you've done that, it's irrelevant what the server is or where it is.
For modern server hardware, if you run your own colo setup, that's a matter of having PXE and tftp set up once in a colo, and you can then use an IPMI connection to do the OS installation and config remotely, so even with colocated servers, I'd typically visit the data center once or twice a year to manage several racks of servers. The occasional dead disk would be swapped by data centre staff. Everything else would typically be handled via IPMI.
E.g. one of my setups involved 1k containers across New Zealand, Germany and several colo facilities in the UK. Hetzner (Germany) was the first managed hosting provider we found that could compete on total cost ownership with leasing servers and putting them in racks in the UK. Had we been located in Germany (cheaper colo facilities than near London), they'd not been able to compete, but putting stuff in a colo facility somewhere we didn't have people nearby would be too much of a hassle and the cost difference was relatively minor.
Small parts of the bootstrap scripts we had were the only thing different between deploying into KVM VMs (New Zealand), managed servers not in the same racks (Hetzner), and colocated bare metal booting via PXE on their own physical networks (UK). Once they were tied into the VPN and the container runtime and firewall was in place, our orchestration scripts (couple of weeks of work, long before Kubernetes etc. was a thing - we were originally deploying openvz containers and so the same tool could deploy to openvz, KVM and docker over the years) would deploy VMs/containers to them, run backups and failover setups, and dynamically tie them into our frontend load balancers.
We did toy with the idea of tieing in AWS instances to that setup too, but over many years of regularly reviewing the cost we could never get AWS cheap enough to justify it. We kept trying because there was a constant stream of people in the business who believed - with no data - that it'd be cheaper, but the closest we got to with experiments with AWS was ca twice the cost.
For the record, in my current job we do use AWS entirely. I could cut the cost of what we're using it for by ~80%-90% by moving it to Hetzner. But the cost is low enough that it's not worth investing the time in doing the move at this point, and it's not likely to grow much (it's used mostly for internal services for a small team). That's the kind of scenario where AWS is great - offloading developer time on setups that are cheap to run even at AWS markups.
I tend to recommend to people that it's fine to start with AWS to deploy fast and let their dev team cobble something together. But they need to keep an eye on the bill, and have some sort of plan for how to manage the costs as their system gets more complex. That means also thinking long and hard before adding complicated dependencies on AWS. E.g. try to hide AWS dependencies behind APIs they can replace.
Re: Is a billion dollars worth of server lying on the ground?
#335Earlier quoted context omitted.
VMs are certainly not the primary benefit of the cloud; cloud providers offer many services in addition to VM orchestration, but that hardly matters because your own example is illustrative of your error: > The overhead of bare metal on top of cloud VMs is basically knowing how to handle RAID and set up load balancing. This implies human beings to handle raid and set up load balancing, which suggests that you need to…
Yes, you need to know how to use Linux. And as the article astutely points out, there is an undiscussed problem with UNIX skills loss across the industry. AWS provides GUIs and Linux doesn't - accepted. However for the many, many people who do already have those skills, and for the many pieces of software that are basically web servers + databases, the overhead of bare metal vs cloud VMs or services is basically a bi…
They've not seen servers with IPMI tied into PXE boot and a TFTP setup. They don't realise once that server is racked up, we can log in to an IPMI console, power it on remotely, have it boot straight into a bootstrap script, remotely install an OS like CoreOS/Flatcar without manual intervention, have orchestration scripts install the necessary basic services on it without manual intervention, and boom, it's part of your own "private cloud" ready to deploy containers to that may well not require maintenance "below" the container layer for years.
And they don't realise you can contract someone to do this for you for low enough day rates that it'll take you a truly massive setup before you're paying the equivalent of a full time engineer.
Re: Is a billion dollars worth of server lying on the ground?
#336Earlier quoted context omitted.
Another issue is people don't understand how powerful modern hardware is. You have modern systems that process less transaction per a second ones from the 1970s. Just look at the modern SPA. They are slower than ones 10 years ago, and the JavaScript VM is much faster plus all the hardware gains. Why does it make Twitter and Gmail a few seconds to load?
I don't doubt certain mainframe apps of the (late) 1970s could beat the TPS of a generically frameworked app in certain situations, but do you have any real numbers/situations/case studies to back that up?
Re: Is a billion dollars worth of server lying on the ground?
#337Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, you need to know how to use Linux. And as the article astutely points out, there is an undiscussed problem with UNIX skills loss across the industry. AWS provides GUIs and Linux doesn't - accepted. However for the many, many people who do already have those skills, and for the many pieces of software that are basically web servers + databases, the overhead of bare metal vs cloud VMs or services is basically a bi…
A large part of the problem is that most developers have no experience with this, and think server hardware is as much a pain as home PC hardware, which a large portion of younger developers have little experience with too. They've not seen servers with IPMI tied into PXE boot and a TFTP setup. They don't realise once that server is racked up, we can log in to an IPMI console, power it on remotely, have it boot strai…
Meanwhile we've had 20 years of media and culture telling people that those who get rich are the software guys, never the infrastructure guys, and that the easiest way to get into the industry is by learning web design.
Also, I suspect the industry is exhausting the pool of talent that learned computing on UNIX workstations at university in the 80s and early-mid 90s. The people who lived and breathed servers and UNIX are retiring out of the workforce, and not really being replaced. AWS is stepping in the fill the breach by selling sysadmins-as-a-service, basically, with a thin veneer of GUI programming slapped on top, and some proper documentation writers. Selling pickaxes and shovels to the gold miners - classic.
Finally, I think a lot of firms have developed a "no contractors" policy. I've never worked at a company that allowed contractors and I'm about mid-way through my own career, a bit less. At some point it has become received CEO wisdom that they're building a committed team of true believers, so "mercenaries" aren't welcome. It leads to the kind of thinking you see in this thread where "I don't have the skills, therefore I must hire someone full time, and they must earn as much as me, therefore it's too expensive" ends up leading to "and therefore I must outsource to a firm that 'contracts' for an hourly rate billed via credit card".
Re: Is a billion dollars worth of server lying on the ground?
#338Earlier quoted context omitted.
A large part of the problem is that most developers have no experience with this, and think server hardware is as much a pain as home PC hardware, which a large portion of younger developers have little experience with too. They've not seen servers with IPMI tied into PXE boot and a TFTP setup. They don't realise once that server is racked up, we can log in to an IPMI console, power it on remotely, have it boot strai…
100% agreed. I venture that it's a side effect of our industry relying almost entirely on universities and self-learning to propagate knowledge, instead of trade schools. Academics don't want to teach "messy" real world skills like how to actually build a distributed computer with your own hands: there's a very narrow range of skills considered acceptable to teach in the academic world and sysadmin isn't one of them.…