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US Government Continues Encryption War

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Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#41

Post by dalbasal »

roenxi wrote: post #34
shakna wrote: post #3

> Nor are we necessarily talking about the customized encryption used by large business enterprises to protect their operations. We are talking about consumer products and services such as messaging, smart phones, email, and voice and data applications. I am very confused by this statement from Barr. Protecting consumer data is protecting a business' operations. If user data is properly encrypted, then a dataleak is…

Allow me to put some words in Barr's mouth for you: "I work in law enforcement, and I am uncomfortable with the idea that the public might have effective tools to communicate privately. But I can't say that directly because then people who aren't paying attention will be upset. So instead I'll be a bit confused about what my point is and draw some distinctions that don't make sense" There is a very compelling case th…

IDK if it's rare that they make this case. It depends on what the are promoting or defending.

Or rather, it's rare that anyone (including people against this war on encryption) makes a blunt argument that criminals will escape because the police are constrained. The blunt tradeoffs argument is from a classroom or bar. It's not the kind of argument that will be made (bluntly) in a legal, policy or legislative setting.

In any case... I don't think "denied some powers" should be assessed against "risk of criminals escaping justice." One is abstract and the other concrete. The actual tradeoff is between criminals escaping and actual abuse of power by law enforcement. Some amount of both is guaranteed. This tips the scale.

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#42

Post by est31 »

dandanua wrote: post #28

Humans are mortal. It doesn't matter if you are a dictator or a janitor - you will die anyway. But the institutions, the system, the culture - will stay for much much longer. Those who build a centralized system that can control every aspect of humans life just don't realize they are building Hell on Earth. Decentralization and fairfull consensus between every acting party, no matter how much power they have - this i…

Note that institutions are shorter lived than one might think. If you have become 25 this year, you'll have lived for more than 10% of the US's entire lifetime. 75, and you'll have lived for a third of its existence.

Those institutions which are longer lived are usually subject to tons of change. Think of the imperial Chinese system with its many dynasties or the church with its schisms. And despite behaviourally modern humans having lived on this planet for tens of thousands of years, thousands of generations, you won't find any institution that has survived longer than a few hundred generations.

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#43

Post by progre »

hutzlibu wrote: post #39
dandanua wrote: post #28

Humans are mortal. It doesn't matter if you are a dictator or a janitor - you will die anyway. But the institutions, the system, the culture - will stay for much much longer. Those who build a centralized system that can control every aspect of humans life just don't realize they are building Hell on Earth. Decentralization and fairfull consensus between every acting party, no matter how much power they have - this i…

"are still trying to build this ugly human pyramid of subordination, just like in a primal tribe" Well, there is a argument, that this is the case, because having leaders and followers is somewhat build in our DNA, if our ancestors lived like that for millions of years. But the power structure in primal tribes were seldom true pyramidical. (That developed later in civilisation.) You had council of elders, the shamans…

I thought that consensus rule was the dominant form of organanisation up to fairly recently, maybe 200000 years ago. This seems to work well for groups of about 50-70 individuals. Leaders and followers by that theory is something that comes with agriculture and trade and the larger groups needed for that. So I wouldn't be so sure that it's "in our dna".

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#45

Post by newyorker2 »

ohazi wrote: post #14

I wonder whether we're going to get a temporary break from this encryption surveillance ratchet with Biden as president, or if it'll continue regardless. This seems to be one of Barr's pet issues, and he's about to be shown the door. Still, opposition to encryption rights has historically not been partisan, so I'm not optimistic.

If there's anything Biden will do, is to enable the cause further.

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#46

Post by beiz »

est31 wrote: post #42
dandanua wrote: post #28

Humans are mortal. It doesn't matter if you are a dictator or a janitor - you will die anyway. But the institutions, the system, the culture - will stay for much much longer. Those who build a centralized system that can control every aspect of humans life just don't realize they are building Hell on Earth. Decentralization and fairfull consensus between every acting party, no matter how much power they have - this i…

Note that institutions are shorter lived than one might think. If you have become 25 this year, you'll have lived for more than 10% of the US's entire lifetime. 75, and you'll have lived for a third of its existence. Those institutions which are longer lived are usually subject to tons of change. Think of the imperial Chinese system with its many dynasties or the church with its schisms. And despite behaviourally mod…

there is the icelandic althing which has been around since 930. but as per your point, no matter what, growth and change is necessary for the survival of an institution - especially one determined to last.

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#47

Post by refurb »

Normille wrote: post #10
rmrfstar wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After we get rid of warrant-proof window shades, we'll get to the real problem. We all know what it is: Thought Crime.

>...We all know what it is: Thought Crime... Scotland's proposed new Hate Crime Bill would pretty much take care of that angle.[0] >Scotland’s proposed hate crime bill will penalise anyone whipping up hatred against “protected groups.” That includes people making “insulting” remarks within their own home, Justice Secretary Humza Yousaf has revealed. [0] https://www.rt.com/uk/504813-scotland-hate-crime-at-home/ [Many…

Reminds me of the discussion about the big tech companies filtering content...

"Last October, Facebook, Google and Twitter were asked by Hawaii Senator Mazie Hizono to draw up a “mission statement” to “prevent the foment of discord.”"

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/face...

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#48

Post by leto_ii »

Thorentis wrote: post #38
dandanua wrote: post #28

Humans are mortal. It doesn't matter if you are a dictator or a janitor - you will die anyway. But the institutions, the system, the culture - will stay for much much longer. Those who build a centralized system that can control every aspect of humans life just don't realize they are building Hell on Earth. Decentralization and fairfull consensus between every acting party, no matter how much power they have - this i…

I think heirarchy is a natural human inclination. It's observed in every part of the animal kingdom. But it is possible to simultaneously have hierarchy and autonomy at the lowest level. Subsidiarity and distributism are the only things I am convinced will work. Every other endeavour ends up being a free-for-all (that ultimately is self destructive) or a dictorship (that eventually implodes).

> I think heirarchy is a natural human inclination. It's observed in every part of the animal kingdom.

I have two main objections to this line of thinking:

1. Even if a tendency or behavior can occur in "nature", that doesn't necessarily make it correct. By that measure murder, infanticide, rape etc. should also be considered acceptable since they occur in nature (both with humans and animals).

2. If you take a look at smth like The World Until Yesterday or other similar work it will become apparent that the kind of large scale hierarchies of power present in the modern world are relatively recent constructions. To me they're more a hallmark of contingency and deliberate human choices, not of "nature". If we want to make a less hierarchical society we can, it's in our power to change the design of society (to a significant extent at least).

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#49

Post by refurb »

newyorker2 wrote: post #45
ohazi wrote: post #14

I wonder whether we're going to get a temporary break from this encryption surveillance ratchet with Biden as president, or if it'll continue regardless. This seems to be one of Barr's pet issues, and he's about to be shown the door. Still, opposition to encryption rights has historically not been partisan, so I'm not optimistic.

If there's anything Biden will do, is to enable the cause further.

I agree. Biden is old-school, firmly entrenched in the military-intelligence industrial complex.

He's fully on board with backdoors. I guarantee it.

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#50

Post by dandanua »

Thorentis wrote: post #38
dandanua wrote: post #28

Humans are mortal. It doesn't matter if you are a dictator or a janitor - you will die anyway. But the institutions, the system, the culture - will stay for much much longer. Those who build a centralized system that can control every aspect of humans life just don't realize they are building Hell on Earth. Decentralization and fairfull consensus between every acting party, no matter how much power they have - this i…

I think heirarchy is a natural human inclination. It's observed in every part of the animal kingdom. But it is possible to simultaneously have hierarchy and autonomy at the lowest level. Subsidiarity and distributism are the only things I am convinced will work. Every other endeavour ends up being a free-for-all (that ultimately is self destructive) or a dictorship (that eventually implodes).

Hierarchies are natural to everything, it's pointless to fight just them. I'm specifically against subordinate relations like master-slave. In a typical firm there is a boss that commands managers, workers etc. The boss has the most power. But he is still accountable to an agreement between him and workers. He can't do "whatever he wants".

In a very centralized government systems you can't make top management accountable. Moreover, in such systems top management actually support master-slave relations between people, like between men-women, rich-poor, etc. It's then easier to hold power.

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