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US Government Continues Encryption War

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Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#31

Post by tinkywinky »

Interesting read thanks for bringing the topic to attention.

I seriously doubt governments lack the surveillance tools and require more access with backdoors or breaking encryption. For example AES encryption calls CPU instructions to hardware that exists only by a few companies. DNS is either through a handful of public cache servers or captured at the OS level. The network backbone is by a handful of companies world wide. Of course the US is world leader of breaking privacy but this is theater

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#32

Post by aborsy »

You can’t ban algorithms and ideas in practice. The output of an algorithm doesn’t prove that a particular algorithm has been used. Even then, anyone can modify and code algorithms.

You can force companies to put backdoors in their encryption products, but the governments already do that (even though using them may not be convenient for them). Further, this will push crypto in the hands of people, and to outside US, to outside cloud, push for decentralization, which the US government doesn’t like.

The security by and large lies in end points. Back-door in hardware, operating systems etc for access to key material seems to be the focus of the governments.

It’s a golden age for intelligence agencies; they probably want a handle on the cloud.

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#33

Post by tjoff »

suifbwish wrote: post #29
kebman wrote: post #21

As a matter of strategy, I doubt that developers aren't already downloading key cryptographic libraries out there in order to host them outside the USA. I think news like this might also encourage more people to program encrypted messaging and file transfer applications. I mean, who in here hasn't at least made a small cryptographic test with widely known libraries? The irony is that the more technology like this is…

I don’t understand how they could ban strong encryption when everyone is gearing up for quantum resistance for blockchain technology. Once you have a distributed quantum resistant system good luck on that. There are so many ways this isn’t practical. If everyone just traded back and forth weakly encrypted garbage data chunks it would be indistinguishable from strong encryption. Also you can encrypt something with wea…

How is any of that relevant?

If anything strong encryption gives better support of outlawing it, from a governments perspective.

The fact that you can be a lawless individual and ignore it and obfuscate everything has no bearing on the legality of it. But it does mean that if they suspect you are doing anything illegal they don't have to figure out if you and what you are doing, since your obfuscation is enough to send you to jail.

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#34

Post by roenxi »

shakna wrote: post #3

> Nor are we necessarily talking about the customized encryption used by large business enterprises to protect their operations. We are talking about consumer products and services such as messaging, smart phones, email, and voice and data applications. I am very confused by this statement from Barr. Protecting consumer data is protecting a business' operations. If user data is properly encrypted, then a dataleak is…

Allow me to put some words in Barr's mouth for you:

"I work in law enforcement, and I am uncomfortable with the idea that the public might have effective tools to communicate privately. But I can't say that directly because then people who aren't paying attention will be upset. So instead I'll be a bit confused about what my point is and draw some distinctions that don't make sense"

There is a very compelling case that law enforcement should be denied some powers even at the risk of criminals escaping justice. That case is complicated and takes several pages to explain. It is rare that law enforcement officials will make that case, and rare that the public understands when law enforcement is too powerful.

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#35

Post by rmrfstar »

roenxi wrote: post #34
shakna wrote: post #3

> Nor are we necessarily talking about the customized encryption used by large business enterprises to protect their operations. We are talking about consumer products and services such as messaging, smart phones, email, and voice and data applications. I am very confused by this statement from Barr. Protecting consumer data is protecting a business' operations. If user data is properly encrypted, then a dataleak is…

Allow me to put some words in Barr's mouth for you: "I work in law enforcement, and I am uncomfortable with the idea that the public might have effective tools to communicate privately. But I can't say that directly because then people who aren't paying attention will be upset. So instead I'll be a bit confused about what my point is and draw some distinctions that don't make sense" There is a very compelling case th…

> That case is complicated and takes several pages to explain

Then we've reached a crisis point in our moral development, because that statement had been axiomatic since the founding of this country.

"That the individual shall have full protection in person and in property is a principle as old as the common law." [1]

[1] https://www.cs.cornell.edu/~shmat/courses/cs5436/warren-bran...

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#36

Post by jand »

m0zg wrote: post #13

Speaking of spying on the populace, does anyone know why Palantir stock is on a tear for the past couple of days? There's nothing publicly known that would cause this. Is the new administration planning to tighten the bolts / expand the police state?

> There's nothing publicly known that would cause this.

I cannot tell if [1] meets the requirements for being a reasonable cause in your (or anybody else's) opinion. Decide for yourself.

[1] https://www.palantir.com/pt_media/palantir-is-providing-coro...

Edit: [1] just contains a link to Forbes, so you can go directly to:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2020/03/31/palan...

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#37

Post by m0zg »

_red wrote: post #22
m0zg wrote: post #13

Speaking of spying on the populace, does anyone know why Palantir stock is on a tear for the past couple of days? There's nothing publicly known that would cause this. Is the new administration planning to tighten the bolts / expand the police state?

>Is the new administration planning to tighten the bolts / expand the police state? I wouldn't worry, any of his actions will be backed up by the required votes.

> I wouldn't worry

I would. Spying and warmongering are those very few things that both major party establishments readily agree on, and I hate to pay for either of those things, or being spied upon even more than I already am.

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#38

Post by Thorentis »

dandanua wrote: post #28

Humans are mortal. It doesn't matter if you are a dictator or a janitor - you will die anyway. But the institutions, the system, the culture - will stay for much much longer. Those who build a centralized system that can control every aspect of humans life just don't realize they are building Hell on Earth. Decentralization and fairfull consensus between every acting party, no matter how much power they have - this i…

I think heirarchy is a natural human inclination. It's observed in every part of the animal kingdom. But it is possible to simultaneously have hierarchy and autonomy at the lowest level. Subsidiarity and distributism are the only things I am convinced will work. Every other endeavour ends up being a free-for-all (that ultimately is self destructive) or a dictorship (that eventually implodes).

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#39

Post by hutzlibu »

dandanua wrote: post #28

Humans are mortal. It doesn't matter if you are a dictator or a janitor - you will die anyway. But the institutions, the system, the culture - will stay for much much longer. Those who build a centralized system that can control every aspect of humans life just don't realize they are building Hell on Earth. Decentralization and fairfull consensus between every acting party, no matter how much power they have - this i…

"are still trying to build this ugly human pyramid of subordination, just like in a primal tribe"

Well, there is a argument, that this is the case, because having leaders and followers is somewhat build in our DNA, if our ancestors lived like that for millions of years.

But the power structure in primal tribes were seldom true pyramidical. (That developed later in civilisation.) You had council of elders, the shamans, priests, etc. different kinds of power balance. Also the very important difference to civilisation power pyramids: in primal societies power was based much more on merit, not inheritance.

Re: US Government Continues Encryption War

#40

Post by Normille »

nostromo wrote: post #20
Normille wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...We all know what it is: Thought Crime... Scotland's proposed new Hate Crime Bill would pretty much take care of that angle.[0] >Scotland’s proposed hate crime bill will penalise anyone whipping up hatred against “protected groups.” That includes people making “insulting” remarks within their own home, Justice Secretary Humza Yousaf has revealed. [0] https://www.rt.com/uk/504813-scotland-hate-crime-at-home/ [Many…

Laws like that make me want to kiss the Bill of Rights every morning here in the US.

It really is positively Orwellian.

We've already seen many examples of how pwople's phone data has been used in prosecutions. How long before someone is taken to court for an un-PC remark which they made in the [supposed] privacy of their own home, but which was then picked up by their Alexa, transcribed at Amazon HQ and then reported to the authorities as a "hate crime"?

I know using the phrase "virtue signalling" tends to merit a bucket load of downvotes here on HN. But I really do think we've arrived at a farcical situation in the West [especially in Europe] where legislators are falling over themselves to draft ever more idiotic laws intended to show how much more "liberal" and "progressive" they are than the next guy.

With, ironically, the consequence that these same laws are actually making society less free and more controlled, as people are becoming too frightened to express opinions that don't conform, for fear of being branded a bigot / racist / sexist/ phobe

Ironic that so few people in the West can see that we're mirroring exactly the same kind of 'dissenting viewpoint not tolerated' society that we used to deride the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe for and continue to condemn China for today.

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