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Workers Leaving the Googleplex

andrewnormanwilson.com

331–340 of 421 posts

Re: Workers Leaving the Googleplex

#331
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For crying out loud, it's not a "class system" it's company hierarchy. Contract workers are not employees they are temporary hired hands they get fired and reallocated on company whim for company purposes, that is the nature of their jobs, they are easier to fire and hire than full time 401k employees. Not everyone gets the company car home with them. What disturbs me is that you keep pointing to the fact that they a…

If its not a class system, whats the need for color coding badges? Don't you think an electronic badge will prevent and authorize access no matter what color it is.

It's the system they chose to keep things in check, I'm not aware of their inner works as I'm not their HR guy, even so color coding doesn't suggest a 'class system' (my gmail labels are color coded) it's a just a system to keep things in order.

Re: Workers Leaving the Googleplex

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discrediting the source or his delivery doesn't change what this looks like on face value: People of color coming out of a building who have no access to the same perks as other employees and where the intention is clearly to avoid publicity of their low cost labor.

There are lots of white people who come out of buildings at Google every day who don't have access to the same perks as the CEOs. Is this news? The intention is to avoid someone making a big stink over a non-issue, because empirically people like yourself will latch onto Michael Moore style "exposes" and make a non-issue into a big problem.

Which Michael Moore expose(s) concern themselves with non-issues?

Re: Workers Leaving the Googleplex

#333
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employing someone at the minimum wage rate is "evil"?

"I'd pay you even less, but it'd be illegal !"

That perspective assumes pay is the only thing that matters in the bundle of benefits that counts as a job. Given that one can make a job better or worse in zillions of ways, mandating a minimum wage probably makes both the employer and the employee worse off compared to allowing them to reach a free mutual agreement on terms.

It might make employees worse off by reducing their hours, by reducing the training budget, reducing flexibility of work hours, reducing job security...or by reducing perks such as free food.

Here's an example: Suppose you're running a videogame company and you need to test your new videogame. If it were legal, one strategy might be to pay a small army of junior-high kids, say, $1/hour to test your videogame after school. The kids would go for it because they get the ability to play hot new video games in a relaxing, low-pressure environment, with free snacks and drinks and even a small amount of pay, where ordinarily it would cost them money to play videogames. As a side benefit, they'd get valuable exposure to the work environment, make business contacts, possibly discover a new career.

Now pass laws demanding a minimum wage. The junior high kids are priced out of the market; if you have to pay a large wage you'll hire fewer but more qualified people rather than more, less qualified people. Now it's much harder to get started in the field. A $13/hour testing job is a different job than the $1/hour job. More stressful, harder to get, and quite possibly less effective.

So change your quote to "You'd prefer to take less (in exchange for offsetting benefits that are more valuable to you than to me), but offering you that deal would be illegal!"

Re: Workers Leaving the Googleplex

#334
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying there hasn't been a significant anti-labor campaign the last 40 years? Take a look at attitudes towards American Labor in the 50s-60s and now. Big difference, right? Sure there's a difference, but I wouldn't attribute even half of that difference to some kind of vast propaganda campaign.

You've got most of the working class opposed to the idea of organized labor during a period of time when working class salaries have stagnated and shrunk relative to baseline inflation, and definitely shrunk relative to household costs like healthcare and gasoline. Yeah, I'm sure they're against it because they're scholars of austrian economics. They probably read Hayek to their kids when they get home from their shi…

I've known a lot of people who became cynical of organized labor because of their personal experiences with it. Corruption and violence in labor unions exist in reality, not just in the media--as do more mundane problems.

Also keep in mind that American unions are different from European unions. I believe that in Germany, unions are routinely major shareholders in the companies their members work for. This is a very good system, because it incentivizes the union to favor fair outcomes that are beneficial to workers without damaging the value of the company. American unions actively resist this arrangement.

Re: Workers Leaving the Googleplex

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for taking the time to offer a balanced opinion. I find myself largely agreeing with your sentiments. I think there must be a better balance to be struck between the approach taken in Europe (seen as too difficult to fire people, which isn't conducive to a healthy business environment) and to the American approach (you can be fired at-will). I myself like to watch US-based documentaries like Gasland, Food Inc.…

I like your rephrasing of my statement on the love of money. You wrote: "My take is that the blind pursuit of money, to the detriment of other considerations, is the root of (some/all) evil." My feeling is that as you get more money, as it becomes more of a goal to you, the more likely it is that you will pursue money to the detriment of other considerations. I'll have think about your last statement. The one about t…

"Is the U.S. rich in happiness? contentment? My perception is no."

Happiness is relative. Struggling to scrape by on a dollar a day, and wondering where your next meal is going to come from must be pretty awful. Perhaps more people should do volunteer work to realise just how lucky we have it in the west. I think that by being wealthier, you can "move up" Maslow's Hierarchy of Human Needs[1], and if you reach 'self-actualisation' i.e. you are intellectually fulfilled, have pride in your work and accomplishments etc., that that is it's own kind of happiness. I agree that you are never going to achieve any kind of happiness by simply pursuing some arbitrary dollar amount. That is a fool's game. Beyond a certain point increasing your bank account balance is a meaningless exercise.

The second and third paragraph mention some things are are an unfortunate byproduct of an industrialsed nation. They are also arguably unnecessary - the means are there to combat obesity, products made by slave labour, destruction of the environment etc. I don't really have a good answer for these. It's important to note that some of these things can happen in a poor country too - I remember in the movie "Black Hawk Down" that the soldiers were admiring the lovely view of the ocean, but they were warned to not go in as it was extremely polluted. It probably wasn't the Somalians that polluted it though!

"Your point appears to be that financial innovation (money pursuits) can and sometimes do lead to benefits for society." It all depends. If you are a seller of Credit Default Swaps in Goldman Sachs circa 2006, you probably know in your heart and soul that what you are doing is highly destructive to society. But dammit, you need to hit your annual bonus, so you sell, sell, sell. Good inventions can be twisted in destructive ways.

All human systems and artefacts are imperfect. They are also morally-neutral. Think of nuclear power. When it was discovered, the idea was to bring really cheap electricity to the masses. As it turned out, the electricity wasn't cheap and the most horrific weapon ever created was unleashed. Or even a car - you can use a car to help an elderly neighbour get into town, or use it to escape from a bank robbery. And so on.

"As a counter, I'll offer this up. The great scientific discoveries of the world were not done for money. Newton would not have been a better mathematician had he been paid more. Human progress, largely, comes from people who like to solve problems. Who are curious about the world and want to understand it. A society that gives such people the means to pursue their intellectual passions is one that progresses."

True - but one must also pay the bills. You could work on your passion with great dedication and focus, if only for that pesky matter of money. Look at pg - he solved his money problem by selling Viaweb, and used his newfound time and wealth to help young up and coming entrepreneurs to launch and grow their businesses. If you ever see pictures of him, you know he just loves every minute of what he does. He does a great job because he cares deeply about nurturing entrepreneurship. But if he didn't have the time and money to do YC and had urgent bills to pay, things would be different and the world would be a worse off. Also, watch "The Secret History of Silicon Valley". Steve Blank details how Silicon Valley wouldn't exist today without defense funding from the government. We wouldn't be having this conversation if the US didn't spend so much on military research!

On a related note, I was watching the BBC one morning and the question was posed to (I think) a historian: why couldn't the renaissance have happened in England? He gave two reasons, one was that England at the time was consumed in civil war, and the other was that the Catholic church was a major patron of the arts. Money again. By having such a wealthy benefactor willing to fund them, artists like da Vinci could create works of art like La Pieta[3]. A similar virtuous cycle exists today in Silicon Valley, with investors willing to place big bets on tech innovations that may or may not work. See the parallel? Those with money, but less skill (the Church, VCs) are willing to fund those with the skill, but not the money (hackers, artists).

"I would argue that a better system needs to be developed because the downsides to the pursuit of money are quite bad and will lead to a world with it's resources plundered."

Money, stock and bond markets are just a human construct that reflects human faults and failings, mood swings and fear and greed. Although it's imperfect, the capitalistic system is the best system we've come up with so far. It emulates evolution, which is probably why it beats communism and other alternatives. Hopefully it will continue to evolve to the betterment of all.

On the lack of money causing evil, just look at the piracy situation off the coast in Somalia. There is no jobs or way of earning a decent wage there. So they turn to piracy as it's they only way to actually make money in that unfortunate country.

[1] http://www.ruralhealth.utas.edu.au/comm-lead/images/Maslows-...

[2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTC_RxWN_xo

[3] http://pwlawrence.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/M...

Re: Workers Leaving the Googleplex

#336
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If its not a class system, whats the need for color coding badges? Don't you think an electronic badge will prevent and authorize access no matter what color it is.

It's so that security guards and others can enforce area bans just by looking at your badge. For instance, some gatherings might be open only to white badges, some to white + green, the shuttle probably isn't available to yellow badges, etc.

Why do you need security guards to enforce when your badge is electronic(RFID). You swipe your badge everywhere you enter(including cafes inside buildings for which you swipe your badge to enter), especially in a company that is tech oriented. I dont think anyone with a white badge enter without swiping.

Re: Workers Leaving the Googleplex

#337
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If its not a class system, whats the need for color coding badges? Don't you think an electronic badge will prevent and authorize access no matter what color it is.

It's the system they chose to keep things in check, I'm not aware of their inner works as I'm not their HR guy, even so color coding doesn't suggest a 'class system' (my gmail labels are color coded) it's a just a system to keep things in order.

I am aware of how electronic badges work and that should keep things in check. Worst case they could ask for their id. My point is the electronic system does keep things in order, so why the color? Maybe they should give violet badge to the 15 people working on the search engine. And similar color to different teams that way it is easier to identify.

Re: Workers Leaving the Googleplex

#338
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're getting a little mixed up. People with red badges (like the author) are contractors. The article is about people with yellow badges, who receive far fewer perquisites and are kept separate from the general googler population. Who are the people with yellow badges? The author never found out. And Google does not appear to have made the information public.

They might be contracted by another company with shittier terms. And Google doesn't have to make it's inner workings public.

I never meant to imply that they did. My point was that we don't know the story. For all we know, they could be super-top-secret humanoid robots that Google is developing!

Re: Workers Leaving the Googleplex

#339
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so that security guards and others can enforce area bans just by looking at your badge. For instance, some gatherings might be open only to white badges, some to white + green, the shuttle probably isn't available to yellow badges, etc.

Why do you need security guards to enforce when your badge is electronic(RFID). You swipe your badge everywhere you enter(including cafes inside buildings for which you swipe your badge to enter), especially in a company that is tech oriented. I dont think anyone with a white badge enter without swiping.

there are areas (eg. meetings in cafes) where you don't have to swipe through a security door to get in. these are policed by physical security.

Re: Workers Leaving the Googleplex

#340
post #191

Interesting. My Dad once sued microsoft because they had many "temporary" workers who did not get the full benefit of full time workers. These workers were labelled as contract workers however, he was able to win his case because at the end of the day, they were working full time for Microsoft. Not only that, they were often employed by microsoft for many years, even though the claim was generally that these employee…

Your dad's "winning" of the case was a mixed blessing. It did not result in temporary workers becoming real employees with full benefits. Instead, it removed a number of benefits from temporary employees of large corporations all over the country. It also removed the contractor's ability to work for longer than a year at a time without a break. For example, Intel does not allow temps to use the gym because their lega…

That churn is a huge PITA and disrupts implementation projects something fierce. The ruling also disrupts team cohesion at some places. I am convinced some of the outsourcing that has gone on is directly tied to this ruling.
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