Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

theconversation.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 78 posts

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#61

Post by h0l0cube »

whatshisface wrote: post #27
edmundsauto wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1491, Charles Mann makes the case that the number of ritual sacrifices was far fewer than the number of public executions in European countries during these times. In both cases, people were killed in an effort to bind the citizenry together in the shared belief in the leadership. The initial horror at the Aztec using innocents is tempered when you think about the crimes that many in Europe would likely have commi…

> In both cases, people were killed in an effort to bind the citizenry together in the shared belief in the leadership. Are you suggesting that it doesn't make a difference whether you're executing people for crimes or for fun? Yes, the medieval European justice system was far from perfect, yes, it was so imperfect that people now call things "medieval" when they're cruel and stupid, but surely there is something to…

Moral relativism is a black hole. It's hard to say the actor in one atrocity is better or worse than another actor in another atrocity. But I think it could be said that the Aztec civilization was complicated, and of which the kidnap and brutal sacrifice from its neighboring tribes was one (rather sensationalized) aspect. And I've said it elsewhere, but the podcast really gives you a sense of what it was like to live in the place and time - as much as one can from researching the extant artifacts.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#62

Post by nyolfen »

1-more wrote: post #54
nyolfen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there were roughly this many skulls arranged into towers in front of the main temple at tenochtitlan. not bad for a single city-state

Nice. Smaller, less networked geographical area, but maybe a longer time scale to accrue them all? All signs point to "at least same order of magnitude" here. Edit I'm seeing 6 figure conquistador estimates and a 3 figure number acquired so far? Do you have a cite for 50k? Seems like a likely enough number just curious if anything has been refined since this https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5893933/The…

the aztec empire lasted for less than two centuries.

the six figure estimate provided by the conquistador was written off as fabricated or exaggerated, unti the skull towers were discovered by archaeologists, and a few years later were discovered to roughly match the dimensions provided by the conquistador. i gave half his number as a conservative hedge.

the aztecs are believed to sacrificed tens of thousands of people a year; i do not think it is as outlandish as it may sound.

the aztecs were a truly, historically, uniquely bloodthirsty people.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#63

Post by ch4s3 »

nyolfen wrote: post #62
1-more wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice. Smaller, less networked geographical area, but maybe a longer time scale to accrue them all? All signs point to "at least same order of magnitude" here. Edit I'm seeing 6 figure conquistador estimates and a 3 figure number acquired so far? Do you have a cite for 50k? Seems like a likely enough number just curious if anything has been refined since this https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5893933/The…

the aztec empire lasted for less than two centuries. the six figure estimate provided by the conquistador was written off as fabricated or exaggerated, unti the skull towers were discovered by archaeologists, and a few years later were discovered to roughly match the dimensions provided by the conquistador. i gave half his number as a conservative hedge. the aztecs are believed to sacrificed tens of thousands of peop…

I wouldn’t say uniquely. The ancient Assyrian’s we’re pretty into their horrific brand of terrifying their neighbors. The Cultural Revolution also seems pretty bad to cite a more recent example.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#64

Post by andi999 »

nyolfen wrote: post #62
1-more wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice. Smaller, less networked geographical area, but maybe a longer time scale to accrue them all? All signs point to "at least same order of magnitude" here. Edit I'm seeing 6 figure conquistador estimates and a 3 figure number acquired so far? Do you have a cite for 50k? Seems like a likely enough number just curious if anything has been refined since this https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5893933/The…

the aztec empire lasted for less than two centuries. the six figure estimate provided by the conquistador was written off as fabricated or exaggerated, unti the skull towers were discovered by archaeologists, and a few years later were discovered to roughly match the dimensions provided by the conquistador. i gave half his number as a conservative hedge. the aztecs are believed to sacrificed tens of thousands of peop…

Here a source for the skull towers https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/06/feeding-gods-hundred...

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#65

Post by Thuggery »

JoeDaDude wrote: post #43
h0l0cube wrote: post #2

The Fall of Civilizations podcast does a very good long-form story-telling about the invasion and collapse of the Aztec empire. I really do recommend it and the rest in the series. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56WPMRERgxg

Good podcast! The Aztecs (or Mexica) also have a written history from before the Europeans came. See great summaries in the two books below: A Rain of Darts: The Mexica Aztecs by Burr Cartwright Brundage Fifth Sun: A New History of the Aztecs by Camilla Townsend

> The Aztecs (or Mexica) also have a written history from before the Europeans came.

This might come off as a dick reply, but I kind of doubt that seeing as how, as far as I know, the Aztecs were an illiterate civilization.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#66

Post by h0l0cube »

Thuggery wrote: post #65
JoeDaDude wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good podcast! The Aztecs (or Mexica) also have a written history from before the Europeans came. See great summaries in the two books below: A Rain of Darts: The Mexica Aztecs by Burr Cartwright Brundage Fifth Sun: A New History of the Aztecs by Camilla Townsend

> The Aztecs (or Mexica) also have a written history from before the Europeans came. This might come off as a dick reply, but I kind of doubt that seeing as how, as far as I know, the Aztecs were an illiterate civilization.

> This might come off as a dick reply

Was a bit of a dick reply. You instead might have done a cursory google search, and found that there were not written but pictorial records, which I think is more interesting to the discussion than shutting down someone's comment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_codices

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#67

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

Thuggery wrote: post #65
JoeDaDude wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good podcast! The Aztecs (or Mexica) also have a written history from before the Europeans came. See great summaries in the two books below: A Rain of Darts: The Mexica Aztecs by Burr Cartwright Brundage Fifth Sun: A New History of the Aztecs by Camilla Townsend

> The Aztecs (or Mexica) also have a written history from before the Europeans came. This might come off as a dick reply, but I kind of doubt that seeing as how, as far as I know, the Aztecs were an illiterate civilization.

Were they really? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_writing & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_codices

Maybe the masses, but not their priesthood, elites, or such. Similar to ancient egypt, I think. You don't say they were illiterate just because they used cuneiform, or do you?

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#68

Post by [deleted] »

h0l0cube wrote: post #66
Thuggery wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Aztecs (or Mexica) also have a written history from before the Europeans came. This might come off as a dick reply, but I kind of doubt that seeing as how, as far as I know, the Aztecs were an illiterate civilization.

> This might come off as a dick reply Was a bit of a dick reply. You instead might have done a cursory google search, and found that there were not written but pictorial records, which I think is more interesting to the discussion than shutting down someone's comment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_codices

[deleted]

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#69

Post by Thuggery »

LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #67
Thuggery wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Aztecs (or Mexica) also have a written history from before the Europeans came. This might come off as a dick reply, but I kind of doubt that seeing as how, as far as I know, the Aztecs were an illiterate civilization.

Were they really? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_writing & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_codices Maybe the masses, but not their priesthood, elites, or such. Similar to ancient egypt, I think. You don't say they were illiterate just because they used cuneiform, or do you?

> Were they really?

I'm no linguist, but every time I've looked into this the answer has been yes. Though there is this weird trend to heavily suggest otherwise even in supposed serious sources, which has given me a major chip on my shoulder on this issue.

What they have is proto-writing. The Mayans have full writing, supposedly, and Aztec "script" seems to look like the Mayan's so many assume it must be the same, when it is not at all. Proto-writing pictograms are not at all like cuneiform or Chinese characters. There's no word, for example, for the to be verb in any Aztec script/pictogram. What nouns you can say exist are only what any picture anywhere would have. You can't say "Tototl was feeling despondent on the rainy day of 5th reed" and have someone else read that thought a century later because there are no words to construct a spoken sentence like such. The best you could do is draw a mural with a guy, with rebus device to suggest his name, surrounded by rain, hoping to convey such a sentence. But at that point you're just guessing.

It changes things a lot. I was reading the blurb on that Fifth Sun book and they were getting quite romantic suggesting a narrative of the true forgotten story of the Aztec in their own words the Spanish conquerors didn't want you to know! That's so dishonest to a naive audience. Whatever scholarship they are doing it has to be a combination of post-colonial recordings of oral history, post-colonial Spanish or Spanish influenced contemporary writings, and archeology. There is no other way.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#70

Post by carok »

whatshisface wrote: post #27
edmundsauto wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1491, Charles Mann makes the case that the number of ritual sacrifices was far fewer than the number of public executions in European countries during these times. In both cases, people were killed in an effort to bind the citizenry together in the shared belief in the leadership. The initial horror at the Aztec using innocents is tempered when you think about the crimes that many in Europe would likely have commi…

> In both cases, people were killed in an effort to bind the citizenry together in the shared belief in the leadership. Are you suggesting that it doesn't make a difference whether you're executing people for crimes or for fun? Yes, the medieval European justice system was far from perfect, yes, it was so imperfect that people now call things "medieval" when they're cruel and stupid, but surely there is something to…

A lot of "witches" and heretics tortured and executed in medieval times probably didnt do much wrong
Post reply on HN