Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake • Hacker News Board

Re: Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

#91

Post by jp42 » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 10:41 PM UTC

graton wrote: post #50

nxc18 wrote: post #4

Is there good coverage of how Intel became so uncompetitive? My instinct is to say this is just the natural result of the presence of MBAs who are trained to focus _exclusively_ on this quarter's results so ignore R&D investment and also shit on employees by doing gimmicks like hotdesking to pinch pennies. I'm willing to bet my intuition is wrong, especially given my extremely deep bias against MBAs and 'this quarter…

I think they have lost a lot of their best employees because their pay is not that great. They aimed for paying at the 50th percentile in wages and the top companies come in and can offer double or more their current pay. Doesn't help they switched from large cubes with five-foot high cubicle walls which did a good job on minimizing noise and visual distractions to having cubicle walls with a height of about 3-4 feet…

This is so true. I have friends whose managers told them - "the only way to get more pay is to leave intel", "our hands are tied, we cant give more pay or promo", " to get more pay and promotion, one option is to leave intel and then come back"...all of these folks are in FAANG now.

Re: Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

#92

Post by varispeed » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 10:41 PM UTC

vbezhenar wrote: post #87

ogre_codes wrote: post #53

This is just bad all around. Not just for intel, but for the entire industry. I always prefer companies doing well because their products are successful, not because their competitors fall down. More and more, Apple's timing on their switch to in-house ARM designs seems perfectly timed.

Apple should have switched to AMD instead. They would have almost perfect compatibility with Intel hardware and they would not need investing lots of money to develop chips. Now they either need to halt some Mac lines or develop all kinds of CPUs, from mobile (which they probably can do, because they should be similar enough to iPhones) to server-grade (which they have no experience at all). And there's no way Mac Pr…

I on the other hand hope that Apple will stay away from x86. If they started co-op with AMD it would be a matter of time AMD would have to produce special versions of processors that only Apple could purchase and end users wouldn't be able to do any repairs and a lot of manufacturing power would have been wasted on Macs making it more expensive for other people.

Re: Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

#93

Post by simonh » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 10:44 PM UTC

totalZero wrote: post #49

nxc18 wrote: post #4

Is there good coverage of how Intel became so uncompetitive? My instinct is to say this is just the natural result of the presence of MBAs who are trained to focus _exclusively_ on this quarter's results so ignore R&D investment and also shit on employees by doing gimmicks like hotdesking to pinch pennies. I'm willing to bet my intuition is wrong, especially given my extremely deep bias against MBAs and 'this quarter…

My perspective is that every process node is so critical that missing the mark on 10nm had far-reaching ramifications. This kind of technology has gargantuan inertia. The entire hardware ecosystem is strongly interconnected between different firms, and each firm's future technology depends strongly on its past execution. Failure to deliver on 10nm not only jeopardized the smooth rollout of the subsequent process node…

Apple would be doing their own thing anyway. It’s not just about performance, there’s all the myriad other tweaks and customisations you can do on your own SOC to differentiate yourself. We see this with the mobile SOCs. Secure Enclave, sensors, Specialist machine learning accelerators for image processing, exactly the core count and cache you want, optimised bigLittle. The T2 chip is actually a modified iPhone SoC design. With Apple Silicon that can just be a sub-unit in the main SOC.

Yes moving to a new architecture is challenging, but Apple has done it before any this time it can be for keeps. Never again will they be beholden to another company’s priorities, or stuck with me-too processors their competitors have equal access to. A better Intel road map might have resulted in putting the transition off, but I think it was inevitable eventually ever since Apple bought PA Semi.

Re: Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

#94

Post by wmf » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 10:45 PM UTC

varispeed wrote: post #89

ChuckMcM wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ask: "Why Intel would even bother releasing Rocket Lake if, balancing between higher IPC and lower clocks, the performance would be _lower_ than the 10 series chips?" My understanding from the article is that the answer to that question is that Intel is unable to produce any quantity of chips at 10nm that makes (enough) money. The author surmises that rather than go a year with AMD essentially unchallenged in the…

Why Intel couldn't rent TMSC facility to produce their processors? Too proud?

TSMC's capacity for 2020-2021 is fully booked. Also, it would take Intel 1-2 years to redesign a processor for the TSMC process, but they thought their own 10nm was coming in less than a year so they never switched. And also pride.

Re: Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

#95

Post by toast0 » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 10:48 PM UTC

solarkraft wrote: post #54

totalZero wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My perspective is that every process node is so critical that missing the mark on 10nm had far-reaching ramifications. This kind of technology has gargantuan inertia. The entire hardware ecosystem is strongly interconnected between different firms, and each firm's future technology depends strongly on its past execution. Failure to deliver on 10nm not only jeopardized the smooth rollout of the subsequent process node…

AMD seems to be doing well on x86 - they could've gone with them and saved themselves a somewhat painful ecosystem breakage. It's not just Intel's failure. They must think their chips are competitive against AMD's as well (or they're all in on iOS apps on Macs).

iOS apps on Macs would be easy enough for x86; the SDK iPhone simulator is more or less an x86 iOS VM.

Re: Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

#96

Post by somethoughts » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 10:55 PM UTC

nxc18 wrote: post #4

Is there good coverage of how Intel became so uncompetitive? My instinct is to say this is just the natural result of the presence of MBAs who are trained to focus _exclusively_ on this quarter's results so ignore R&D investment and also shit on employees by doing gimmicks like hotdesking to pinch pennies. I'm willing to bet my intuition is wrong, especially given my extremely deep bias against MBAs and 'this quarter…

The interesting one I think about is if the current CEO is basically their version of Steve Ballmer at Microsoft. Not highly loved by tech, media or finance, but basically held the ship together long enough to enable Microsoft to figure out how to transition away from the sinking ship that was Microsoft Windows and into new markets.

Basically he just needs to keep it afloat long enough for Intel to be able to find its version of Satya Nadella and Azure to unlock the next leg of growth.

Re: Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

#97

Post by edoceo » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 10:57 PM UTC

icelancer wrote: post #77

UncleOxidant wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes on both counts. I was contacted a couple years back about a machine learning contracting gig. When I asked what the hourly rate was the recruiter said $45/hour. I laughed and said that the going rate for that kind of skill set is like $120+/hour. That has not been an isolated incident.

>> $120+/hour Even this would be a substantial discount for most qualified people.

I'm not qualified and get that rate

Re: Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

#98

Post by AnthonyMouse » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 11:00 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #83

Teever wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any indication that Intel will move to this chiplet design? It seems like it's a no brainer and it's been proven to work by AMD. What's keeping Intel from adopting this same practice? is it IP?

Intel has a competitor to chiplets, called EMIB, based off its Altera purchase. EMIB is pretty cool, but has only been deployed in a small number of situations so far (There was a Xeon + FPGA chip Intel made. There was the hybrid Intel+AMD chip, and finally the new big.LITTLE clone chip that Intel merged an Icelake + Atom core together). I don't know why Intel hasn't invested more heavily into EMIB, Foveros, and othe…

> They based their designs off of what TSMC was already delivering to Apple. Since TSMC leapfrogged Intel in technology, AMD can now benefit from TSMC (indirectly benefiting from from Apple's investments).

Did Apple actually buy a significant stake in TSMC or are you just referring to the fact that Apple is one of their large customers along with Qualcomm, Nvidia, Huawei (until recently) etc.?

Re: Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

#99

Post by edoceo » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 11:04 PM UTC

nurspouse wrote: post #80

nxc18 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several of the engineers I worked with a few years ago left Intel (for the company I work at) after they switched to hotdesking to save money on facilities. Basically the concept was instead of engineers having an assigned office or desk, the office would have a large field of unassigned desks and generic equipment. Every day you would come in, reserve a desk, take any belongings from a locker, and set up shop. At th…

> Several of the engineers I worked with a few years ago left Intel (for the company I work at) after they switched to hotdesking to save money on facilities. Throwaway account as I work there, but I'd like to make some minor corrections to this: I don't think most of Intel ever switched to hotdesking. It was a trial program. In my building it was on one or two floors. I can't speak for all the locations, but most of…

It's a symptom of the sickness.

Re: Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

#100

Post by jbay808 » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 11:06 PM UTC

somethoughts wrote: post #96

nxc18 wrote: post #4

Is there good coverage of how Intel became so uncompetitive? My instinct is to say this is just the natural result of the presence of MBAs who are trained to focus _exclusively_ on this quarter's results so ignore R&D investment and also shit on employees by doing gimmicks like hotdesking to pinch pennies. I'm willing to bet my intuition is wrong, especially given my extremely deep bias against MBAs and 'this quarter…

The interesting one I think about is if the current CEO is basically their version of Steve Ballmer at Microsoft. Not highly loved by tech, media or finance, but basically held the ship together long enough to enable Microsoft to figure out how to transition away from the sinking ship that was Microsoft Windows and into new markets. Basically he just needs to keep it afloat long enough for Intel to be able to find it…

Maybe? Intel is in a high-technology field, where research can take a decade to bear fruit. I hope they're already planting the seeds for that growth today, or else that they have plans that will keep them afloat for a very long time.