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Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

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Re: Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

#71

Post by dragontamer »

zinekeller wrote: post #37
dragontamer wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note: the I/O chip on AMD Zen 2 / Zen 3 is a 14nm GloFo chip. Only the CPU-cores ("Zepplin" maybe, or whatever they call them now) are 7nm TSMC. So AMD's strategy also leads to lower fabrication costs: because they can make a far cheaper 14nm chip to handle the slower portions of I/O (talking to RAM, or PCIe), while the expensive 7nm parts of TSMC are used only for the cores / L1 cache / L2 cache / L3 cache.

Small nitpick: if I remeber correctly, AMD now uses 12nm process from GloFo now instead of 14nm (due to PCIe 4 requirements).

If so, it hasn't changed since Zen 2. IIRC, AMD is on record saying that Zen2 / Zen3 have the same I/O chip, and that only the 7nm stuff is changing.

Zen 2 has PCIe 4, so you could very well be correct.

Re: Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

#72

Post by UncleOxidant »

tyingq wrote: post #9
nxc18 wrote: post #4

Is there good coverage of how Intel became so uncompetitive? My instinct is to say this is just the natural result of the presence of MBAs who are trained to focus _exclusively_ on this quarter's results so ignore R&D investment and also shit on employees by doing gimmicks like hotdesking to pinch pennies. I'm willing to bet my intuition is wrong, especially given my extremely deep bias against MBAs and 'this quarter…

Giving Jim Keller the boot is probably on Intel's list of regrets.

Did he get the boot or just decide to leave on his own? It was my impression that he decided to leave to cut his losses since they weren't going to be able to be turned around.

Re: Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

#73

Post by agumonkey »

totalZero wrote: post #49
nxc18 wrote: post #4

Is there good coverage of how Intel became so uncompetitive? My instinct is to say this is just the natural result of the presence of MBAs who are trained to focus _exclusively_ on this quarter's results so ignore R&D investment and also shit on employees by doing gimmicks like hotdesking to pinch pennies. I'm willing to bet my intuition is wrong, especially given my extremely deep bias against MBAs and 'this quarter…

My perspective is that every process node is so critical that missing the mark on 10nm had far-reaching ramifications. This kind of technology has gargantuan inertia. The entire hardware ecosystem is strongly interconnected between different firms, and each firm's future technology depends strongly on its past execution. Failure to deliver on 10nm not only jeopardized the smooth rollout of the subsequent process node…

Not to be pro-intel but I think they suffered from being too far ahead. They picked a path for 10nm when nobody else could even care. They got stuck in it for too long.. they're so invested and now there's a flocking of competition that can leverage faux-7nm processes that actually sells. If they can get back on track it will be a massive business success.

Re: Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

#74

Post by Pet_Ant »

CountSessine wrote: post #59
ethbr0 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The balance likely comes down to volume. Specifically, total global chip sales. If Intel builds Intel (I believe their contract fabing is a rounding error?), then they're directly tied to Intel chip sales. This sets up a potential death spiral. Intel misses a process node deadline, Intel's products are uncompetitive, Intel sales decrease, less demand for Intel fab, less money for Intel fab improvement. Intel can temp…

This is the case with every foundry, though. It’s the reason GloFo isn’t competitive anymore, for example. What’s more interesting is the physics reason that they tripped up the last generation - what did TSMC do right that Intel did wrong? What bets were made? Which ones paid off?

I believe the issue was that Intel was leaning harder on EUV trying to make it and burying the competition instead of a more cautious approach by TSMC. Zen 3 is finally using some EUV layers whereas I believe Intel already wanted to use EUV heavily in their "10"nm process.

Re: Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

#75

Post by hydroreadsstuff »

rasz wrote: post #64
api wrote: post #39

The US needs to do whatever it takes to get TSMC to build not only top-tier fabs but centers of excellence here. As it stands TSMC on Taiwan, which is threatened by China, has damn near a monopoly on competitive fabrication. A single hit on Taiwan could terminally stall the entire global supply chain for top-tier chips.

Why would Taiwan let TSMC move its operations away and thus weaken Taiwans U.S. Defense Guarantees?

Who would've thought that high-end chip manufacturing could be a (n enormous) bargaining chip.

Re: Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

#76

Post by UncleOxidant »

graton wrote: post #50
nxc18 wrote: post #4

Is there good coverage of how Intel became so uncompetitive? My instinct is to say this is just the natural result of the presence of MBAs who are trained to focus _exclusively_ on this quarter's results so ignore R&D investment and also shit on employees by doing gimmicks like hotdesking to pinch pennies. I'm willing to bet my intuition is wrong, especially given my extremely deep bias against MBAs and 'this quarter…

I think they have lost a lot of their best employees because their pay is not that great. They aimed for paying at the 50th percentile in wages and the top companies come in and can offer double or more their current pay. Doesn't help they switched from large cubes with five-foot high cubicle walls which did a good job on minimizing noise and visual distractions to having cubicle walls with a height of about 3-4 feet…

Yes on both counts. I was contacted a couple years back about a machine learning contracting gig. When I asked what the hourly rate was the recruiter said $45/hour. I laughed and said that the going rate for that kind of skill set is like $120+/hour. That has not been an isolated incident.

Re: Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

#77

Post by icelancer »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #76
graton wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they have lost a lot of their best employees because their pay is not that great. They aimed for paying at the 50th percentile in wages and the top companies come in and can offer double or more their current pay. Doesn't help they switched from large cubes with five-foot high cubicle walls which did a good job on minimizing noise and visual distractions to having cubicle walls with a height of about 3-4 feet…

Yes on both counts. I was contacted a couple years back about a machine learning contracting gig. When I asked what the hourly rate was the recruiter said $45/hour. I laughed and said that the going rate for that kind of skill set is like $120+/hour. That has not been an isolated incident.

>> $120+/hour

Even this would be a substantial discount for most qualified people.

Re: Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

#78

Post by corty »

rasz wrote: post #64
api wrote: post #39

The US needs to do whatever it takes to get TSMC to build not only top-tier fabs but centers of excellence here. As it stands TSMC on Taiwan, which is threatened by China, has damn near a monopoly on competitive fabrication. A single hit on Taiwan could terminally stall the entire global supply chain for top-tier chips.

Why would Taiwan let TSMC move its operations away and thus weaken Taiwans U.S. Defense Guarantees?

It can be a mutually beneficial arrangement, perhaps letting TSMC US produce some defence-relevant silicon and providing a safe haven and nest-egg for Taiwans elites in case of invasion/unification.

Re: Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

#79

Post by goatinaboat »

nxc18 wrote: post #12
jjtheblunt wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hotdesking?

Several of the engineers I worked with a few years ago left Intel (for the company I work at) after they switched to hotdesking to save money on facilities. Basically the concept was instead of engineers having an assigned office or desk, the office would have a large field of unassigned desks and generic equipment. Every day you would come in, reserve a desk, take any belongings from a locker, and set up shop. At th…

It is beautifully efficient from a top-down perspective, but it turns out employees like the consistency of a known work location each day

I worked somewhere once that tried this open-plan hot-desking nonsense. The HR dept kept their nice private office with fixed desks however. They said it was because they had to deal with confidentiality. Whereas us dumb engineers developing the IP of the firm presumably didn’t...

Re: Intel’s palpable desperation on display with Rocket Lake

#80

Post by nurspouse »

nxc18 wrote: post #12
jjtheblunt wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hotdesking?

Several of the engineers I worked with a few years ago left Intel (for the company I work at) after they switched to hotdesking to save money on facilities. Basically the concept was instead of engineers having an assigned office or desk, the office would have a large field of unassigned desks and generic equipment. Every day you would come in, reserve a desk, take any belongings from a locker, and set up shop. At th…

> Several of the engineers I worked with a few years ago left Intel (for the company I work at) after they switched to hotdesking to save money on facilities.

Throwaway account as I work there, but I'd like to make some minor corrections to this: I don't think most of Intel ever switched to hotdesking. It was a trial program. In my building it was on one or two floors. I can't speak for all the locations, but most of the other buildings at our site did not have this at all. Unfortunately I was on that floor and hotdesked for 2 years.

I'm pretty sure none of the process/fab folks were hotdesked (I used to work in that area and stayed in touch with those folks). Nor did any of the circuit designers/architecture folks get hotdesked. After a few years, the trial was over and everyone reverted back to having their own permanent desk.

It's incredibly unlikely that this is a reason for Intel's decline.

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