What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness • Hacker News Board

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#51

Post by WaxProlix » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 6:56 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #34

garren wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Execution “for fun” seems inappropriate here, doesn’t it? The comparison to medieval European justice also seems a little apples and oranges. Maybe a comparison to the Inquisition and/or the burning of supposed witches - both religious in nature, both horrendous, both seemingly an attempt to unify societies under a common belief?

The Inquisition is getting closer, but moving the conversation from the justice system to the inquisition does make it look like we're just trying to compare the moral goodness of Europeans and Aztecs. Well, groups like "Europeans" can't have a level of moral goodness, only individual people can. Obviously any European serial killer was worse than the average Aztec. So if that's the discussion we're implicitly having…

Religious death to religious death seems like a more reasonable comparison in the first place right?

Also you managed to miss the (in my mind) legitimate criticism of your characterization of their sacrifices as being 'for fun'.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#52

Post by nyolfen » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 7:17 PM UTC

1-more wrote: post #44

whatshisface wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the European criminal system was far more widespread than Aztec sacrifices, so net net maybe it would be similar. You have to evaluate ideological systems by their net good/evil per follower, otherwise their relative scales would dominate any comparison. For example, medical malpractice has killed unimaginably more people than any suicidal cult ever has. Still, that does not mean it's better to join a suici…

I'd line the Aztecs up against the witch purges of Europe. > Prosecutions for the crime of witchcraft reached a highpoint from 1580 to 1630 during the Counter-Reformation and the European wars of religion, when an estimated 50,000 people were burned at the stake, of which roughly 80% were women, and most often over the age of 40. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_trials_in_the_early_mode...

there were roughly this many skulls arranged into towers in front of the main temple at tenochtitlan. not bad for a single city-state

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#53

Post by blacksmith_tb » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 7:18 PM UTC

edmundsauto wrote: post #23

andi999 wrote: post #3

Somehow it doesnt feel good for me to try to learn from Aztec philosophy, werent these the guys with the appaling human sacrifices?

In 1491, Charles Mann makes the case that the number of ritual sacrifices was far fewer than the number of public executions in European countries during these times. In both cases, people were killed in an effort to bind the citizenry together in the shared belief in the leadership. The initial horror at the Aztec using innocents is tempered when you think about the crimes that many in Europe would likely have commi…

That seems like a fair comparison, though the scale of Aztec sacrifice was pretty remarkable[1]. I would say in either case that it's incredible to me to think of societies where people were more valuable dead than alive - I suppose it suggests they were flourishing, to be able to afford it, but it's hard to imagine.

1: https://phys.org/news/2018-06-skull-tower-rack-evidence-azte...

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#54

Post by 1-more » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 7:32 PM UTC

nyolfen wrote: post #52

1-more wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd line the Aztecs up against the witch purges of Europe. > Prosecutions for the crime of witchcraft reached a highpoint from 1580 to 1630 during the Counter-Reformation and the European wars of religion, when an estimated 50,000 people were burned at the stake, of which roughly 80% were women, and most often over the age of 40. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_trials_in_the_early_mode...

there were roughly this many skulls arranged into towers in front of the main temple at tenochtitlan. not bad for a single city-state

Nice. Smaller, less networked geographical area, but maybe a longer time scale to accrue them all? All signs point to "at least same order of magnitude" here.

Edit I'm seeing 6 figure conquistador estimates and a 3 figure number acquired so far? Do you have a cite for 50k? Seems like a likely enough number just curious if anything has been refined since this https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5893933/The-...

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#55

Post by bigbubba » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 7:35 PM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #46

edmundsauto wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1491, Charles Mann makes the case that the number of ritual sacrifices was far fewer than the number of public executions in European countries during these times. In both cases, people were killed in an effort to bind the citizenry together in the shared belief in the leadership. The initial horror at the Aztec using innocents is tempered when you think about the crimes that many in Europe would likely have commi…

"I think medieval European justice is probably not much better. " I also rarely hear people suggesting to learn from medieval europe. But there is still respect, for example it does bother me, that all those kings still have a "great" in their name, when what it was what they were good at, was large scale slaughtering. King Karl the great? Not for me. By that standards Hitler would be a "Great", too. And that our awe…

Consider this sentence: "Covid19 has caused a great loss of life."

The word 'great' is not simply a more emphatic word for 'good', though in some contexts it might mean that. Great Britain isn't great because it's better than the other Britains, but because it encompasses all of the British Isles. I think it may also be the case that people are called great when their impact on history seems to have a great scale. For instance I think Catherine the Great is called great not because she was particularly benevolent (she personally owned half a million people), but because Russia became more powerful and expansive during her reign.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#56

Post by pharke » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 7:47 PM UTC

edmundsauto wrote: post #23

andi999 wrote: post #3

Somehow it doesnt feel good for me to try to learn from Aztec philosophy, werent these the guys with the appaling human sacrifices?

In 1491, Charles Mann makes the case that the number of ritual sacrifices was far fewer than the number of public executions in European countries during these times. In both cases, people were killed in an effort to bind the citizenry together in the shared belief in the leadership. The initial horror at the Aztec using innocents is tempered when you think about the crimes that many in Europe would likely have commi…

Did the Aztecs execute criminals in similar proportion to Europeans?

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#57

Post by idolaspecus » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 7:53 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #39

lotsofcows wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seem's a little disrespectful of others' belief systems. How can you possibly know that the God's sacrifices were a "mistake"?

Ancient religions had not evolved to be unfalsifiable like modern ones have. The Aztecs believed that they could get something by earning favor - and since they weren't actually getting anything, they were factually wrong in a way no modern religion can manage.

I in general agree with most of your points in this thread and disagree with the claim that you've been disrespectful (to GP and to the Aztecs :)), but I do think there's an interesting and important space between your idea re. Aztec rituals and those who'd say your view is "disrespectful".

It's plausible, in my opinion, that evaluating the Aztecs' ritual sacrifice practice in terms of the modern scientific POV leads to a categorically incorrect analysis. I.e. the questions--whether the Aztec gods exist, whether unfalsifiable claims "make sense" or can be operative, etc--might not be relevant or interesting.

I.e. the function describing the relationship between how closely our actions align with true facts as we understand them intellectually and broad outcomes in quality of life (defined however you want) is almost certainly not monotonic.

I guess in short all I'm saying is that our conscious, intellectual understanding of the world is not the only useful motivator. And I don't mean this in some sort of supernatural, metaphysical, spiritual way: I mean that objectively rational behavior sometimes results from subjectively irrational behavior.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#58

Post by hutzlibu » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 8:09 PM UTC

bigbubba wrote: post #55

hutzlibu wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I think medieval European justice is probably not much better. " I also rarely hear people suggesting to learn from medieval europe. But there is still respect, for example it does bother me, that all those kings still have a "great" in their name, when what it was what they were good at, was large scale slaughtering. King Karl the great? Not for me. By that standards Hitler would be a "Great", too. And that our awe…

Consider this sentence: "Covid19 has caused a great loss of life." The word 'great' is not simply a more emphatic word for 'good', though in some contexts it might mean that. Great Britain isn't great because it's better than the other Britains, but because it encompasses all of the British Isles. I think it may also be the case that people are called great when their impact on history seems to have a great scale. Fo…

"catherine the Great is called great not because she was particularly benevolent, but because Russia became more powerful and expansive during her reign. "

Yes, I am aware of that. But in classic history this seems to be the same. Good and great is having conquered much. And also in the general perception. The hollywood movies of Caesar or Alexander? Pure admiration. No serious criticism(or any at all), I remember of. Nothing against presenting history as it was. But there is still lots of glorification going on.

My school history classes were also speaking mainly great of the "great" people. Even though we would call them brutal dictators and barbaric enslavers if they would exist today.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#59

Post by bigbubba » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 8:24 PM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #58

bigbubba wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider this sentence: "Covid19 has caused a great loss of life." The word 'great' is not simply a more emphatic word for 'good', though in some contexts it might mean that. Great Britain isn't great because it's better than the other Britains, but because it encompasses all of the British Isles. I think it may also be the case that people are called great when their impact on history seems to have a great scale. Fo…

"catherine the Great is called great not because she was particularly benevolent, but because Russia became more powerful and expansive during her reign. " Yes, I am aware of that. But in classic history this seems to be the same. Good and great is having conquered much. And also in the general perception. The hollywood movies of Caesar or Alexander? Pure admiration. No serious criticism(or any at all), I remember of…

I think people are attracted to extreme things in general and power in particular. The great white shark is great because it's huge and powerful, though it's considered monstrous in popular culture. In my experience it's also the favorite shark of nearly any kid who likes sharks, probably because it is immense and powerful.

"World's [blankiest] [blank]" is generally a pretty popular genre, regardless of the subject. Whether it's the tallest mountain, most venomous snake, longest railroad or fastest plane, people are fascinated with extremes. I think the obsession with the world's 'great' leaders like Genghis Khan or Alexander is just another manifestation of this.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#60

Post by octabond » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

Many writers get lost in wanting to attribute a deist philosophy to the Náhuatl race, when their cosmogony tells us otherwise.

They understood a creative being, Ometecuhtli, but that creator was the element of fire (matter), and the creation occurred by the fact of omeycualiztli (matter). The cretaor was the eternal (Ayamictlán), but the imperishable continued to be fire (matter). The gods are the four material beings, the four stars: Tonacatecuhtli, Tonacacíhuatl, Quetzalcoatl and Tezcatlipoca. They deified the rains in Tlaloc and the sea in Chalchiuhtlicue, these deities also being material. To explain the appearance of men, they resorted to the action of fire on earth (matter again), the marriage between Tonacatecuhtli and Tonacacíhuatl. The idea of a spiritual being was not perceived.

The Nahuas were not deists, nor can it be said that their philosophy was Asian-pantheism. It was materialism based on the eternity of matter. Their religion was the Sabaeism of the four stars, and like their philosophy, it was also materialistic.