Ask HN: As a person, what can I do to improve a city? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: As a person, what can I do to improve a city?

#161

Post by solarkraft » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 6:09 PM UTC

tedsanders wrote: post #132

Retric wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean this in the most objective way possible. The risk with urban improvement is making the area more desirable eventually prices people out of the community. So, the real question is do you help the land or current residents? When you own property it’s seriously worth considering local improvements for several reasons, but it’s also easy to confuse the two. Further, if most people in the community own property the…

I think your concern is valid but unfounded. This is fortunate - otherwise the way to help the poor would be to vandalize their neighborhoods, which is a strange conclusion. It's true that increasing quality of a neighborhood will increase its housing price. This will have disparate impact: (1) it will help people who enjoy higher quality, but (2) it will hurt people who would prefer low quality and lower price. Howe…

If you're only concerned about the average quality of housing your argument makes perfect sense, but if I understand you correctly you're casually brushing over people (your neighbors) being forced out of their homes.

Re: Ask HN: As a person, what can I do to improve a city?

#162

Post by bluntfang » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #107

burlesona wrote: post #44

The single best thing you can do is pick a neighborhood - not the whole city - and invest deeply. Get to know everyone in the neighborhood and understand what they want and need, then try to find ways to bring that. When you have a strong network of neighbors and a little bit of cash, you can ramp up investment by cleaning up dirty corners and getting the basic services that a neighborhood is missing. Here’s an examp…

> When you have a strong network of neighbors and a little bit of cash, you can ramp up investment by cleaning up dirty corners and getting the basic services that a neighborhood is missing. I don't think you need a network to begin cleaning up dirty corners. Just pick up garbage you see on the street when you walk around. It has an immediate impact, is easy and doesn't cost anything. Other people may see it and may…

I think it's important to know the people who's corner you're trying to clean, lest you been perceived in a way you didn't intend. I'm not saying you should ask permission, per se, but some people find it offensive when outsiders come in and try to fix problems without context.

Re: Ask HN: As a person, what can I do to improve a city?

#163

Post by bluntfang » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 6:12 PM UTC

mikesabat wrote: post #160

Retric wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean this in the most objective way possible. The risk with urban improvement is making the area more desirable eventually prices people out of the community. So, the real question is do you help the land or current residents? When you own property it’s seriously worth considering local improvements for several reasons, but it’s also easy to confuse the two. Further, if most people in the community own property the…

Also in a very objective way, I don't understand this reasoning. I've never brought up the question before and hoping that HN can explain it in a logical way that I might understand. Let's say that a neighborhood is rated 3 out of 10 - not very good. There is a mix of people that live in this neighborhood. Some people own property and some do not. Then the community makes the neighborhood better and it rises to a 7 o…

>Can someone explain what this description misses and where the harm comes from?

Empathy. Sense of place is real. Home isn't just your house or property values. People deserve not to be priced out of their homes so the sake of profit.

Re: Ask HN: As a person, what can I do to improve a city?

#164

Post by kingsloi » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 6:12 PM UTC

kingsloi wrote: post #99

I haven't officially "launched" it yet as I still have a lot more to do, but I've been working on a community website to track air quality & industry in my community, as I live in Gary, IN, nestled in the the middle of some mega polluters. My neighbours and I got sick 2 years ago from some foul smell in the air and we ended up buying a PurpleAir monitor, and then I just tried to track everything pollution-related I c…

I didn't read the post sorry, just the title. I didn't see it was related to crime, I thought you were asking generally speaking. I can't talk about decreasing crime as Gary has a pretty bad reputation for it, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't a correlation between greenery (nature, trees, plants, flowers, etc) and crime, even if there wasn't any, I know being surrounded by nature is good for us/mental wellbeing.

Re: Ask HN: As a person, what can I do to improve a city?

#165

Post by dontbeevil1992 » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 6:13 PM UTC

mikesabat wrote: post #160

Retric wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean this in the most objective way possible. The risk with urban improvement is making the area more desirable eventually prices people out of the community. So, the real question is do you help the land or current residents? When you own property it’s seriously worth considering local improvements for several reasons, but it’s also easy to confuse the two. Further, if most people in the community own property the…

Also in a very objective way, I don't understand this reasoning. I've never brought up the question before and hoping that HN can explain it in a logical way that I might understand. Let's say that a neighborhood is rated 3 out of 10 - not very good. There is a mix of people that live in this neighborhood. Some people own property and some do not. Then the community makes the neighborhood better and it rises to a 7 o…

moving is not just a reversion to the mean. A neighborhood is more than atomized individuals who live there. There can be a community of people which form a network and a support system that is many years old. Pricing certain people out can rip apart these communities, so it's not just a matter of relocating then continuing as you were.

Then there are the individual-level logistical problems. What does moving do to your commute? Is it easy to find a new job? Will your kids have to go to a different school district?

Re: Ask HN: As a person, what can I do to improve a city?

#166

Post by Buttons840 » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 6:14 PM UTC

mikesabat wrote: post #160

Retric wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean this in the most objective way possible. The risk with urban improvement is making the area more desirable eventually prices people out of the community. So, the real question is do you help the land or current residents? When you own property it’s seriously worth considering local improvements for several reasons, but it’s also easy to confuse the two. Further, if most people in the community own property the…

Also in a very objective way, I don't understand this reasoning. I've never brought up the question before and hoping that HN can explain it in a logical way that I might understand. Let's say that a neighborhood is rated 3 out of 10 - not very good. There is a mix of people that live in this neighborhood. Some people own property and some do not. Then the community makes the neighborhood better and it rises to a 7 o…

Too logical. Here's what non-owners might see:

"The neighborhood is improving, things will get more expensive". Bad.

"I have to move now." Bad. "This new neighborhood is worse than my old one." Only half true (they started at 3 and ended at 3), but perceived as bad.

Re: Ask HN: As a person, what can I do to improve a city?

#167

Post by burlesona » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 6:15 PM UTC

mikesabat wrote: post #160

Retric wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean this in the most objective way possible. The risk with urban improvement is making the area more desirable eventually prices people out of the community. So, the real question is do you help the land or current residents? When you own property it’s seriously worth considering local improvements for several reasons, but it’s also easy to confuse the two. Further, if most people in the community own property the…

Also in a very objective way, I don't understand this reasoning. I've never brought up the question before and hoping that HN can explain it in a logical way that I might understand. Let's say that a neighborhood is rated 3 out of 10 - not very good. There is a mix of people that live in this neighborhood. Some people own property and some do not. Then the community makes the neighborhood better and it rises to a 7 o…

This is a fair point except that neighborhoods are not fungible and are in short supply.

You’re assuming that there is another 3/10 neighborhood available for the people who are displaced to move to, and therefore they gain a short term benefit and eventually end up back where they were.

In practice it’s typical that older areas which have become run down have ample city services, such as transit, parks, and libraries, which may not be the best quality, but at least exist.

Since neighborhoods are no longer built with these amenities, the best available substitute for someone who is displaced from an old neighborhood may be far less desirable than what they had before - a 1/10 trailer park, or worse, homelessness.

However, if we would continue to build traditional neighborhoods that were walkable, had city services, had transit etc. and built enough of those to keep up with the demand, then it would be much more likely that your scenario would play out. In that case the harm of economic change in neighborhoods would be greatly reduced, perhaps even to the point that it wouldn’t be a problem anymore

But that’s quite far from the reality on the ground today.

Re: Ask HN: As a person, what can I do to improve a city?

#168

Post by 8note » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 6:15 PM UTC

mikesabat wrote: post #160

Retric wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean this in the most objective way possible. The risk with urban improvement is making the area more desirable eventually prices people out of the community. So, the real question is do you help the land or current residents? When you own property it’s seriously worth considering local improvements for several reasons, but it’s also easy to confuse the two. Further, if most people in the community own property the…

Also in a very objective way, I don't understand this reasoning. I've never brought up the question before and hoping that HN can explain it in a logical way that I might understand. Let's say that a neighborhood is rated 3 out of 10 - not very good. There is a mix of people that live in this neighborhood. Some people own property and some do not. Then the community makes the neighborhood better and it rises to a 7 o…

> people owning houses

This is the part you're overlooking. People in undesirable communities are renting because they don't have that generational wealth built up

Even if people aren't renting, once the desirability goes up, developers are going to want to kick you out, and will use the government to do it.

Re: Ask HN: As a person, what can I do to improve a city?

#169

Post by 8note » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 6:16 PM UTC

James_Henry wrote: post #158

Retric wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean this in the most objective way possible. The risk with urban improvement is making the area more desirable eventually prices people out of the community. So, the real question is do you help the land or current residents? When you own property it’s seriously worth considering local improvements for several reasons, but it’s also easy to confuse the two. Further, if most people in the community own property the…

If it is more desirable, then you build more housing, it should be as simple as that. If you build enough housing, rents won't rise.

To build more housing, you have to destroy the old housing. This still displaces people, and likely pushes them into smaller apartments where they would have been in a house

Re: Ask HN: As a person, what can I do to improve a city?

#170

Post by dontbeevil1992 » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 6:17 PM UTC

Buttons840 wrote: post #166

mikesabat wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also in a very objective way, I don't understand this reasoning. I've never brought up the question before and hoping that HN can explain it in a logical way that I might understand. Let's say that a neighborhood is rated 3 out of 10 - not very good. There is a mix of people that live in this neighborhood. Some people own property and some do not. Then the community makes the neighborhood better and it rises to a 7 o…

Too logical. Here's what non-owners might see: "The neighborhood is improving, things will get more expensive". Bad. "I have to move now." Bad. "This new neighborhood is worse than my old one." Only half true (they started at 3 and ended at 3), but perceived as bad .

or instead of dismissing people's grievances as illogical, you can skip the strawman phase and engage with the real issues as I and others have described here