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What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

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Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#41

Post by oh_sigh »

h0l0cube wrote: post #4
andi999 wrote: post #3

Somehow it doesnt feel good for me to try to learn from Aztec philosophy, werent these the guys with the appaling human sacrifices?

I only know as much from the podcast I mentioned in the sibling comment, but it seem they were somewhat caricaturized. If you listen to the Podcast you learn the other side of how they were massacred by Cortes, which doesn't really cast the Spanish in a good light. (But surely we can learn from the Spanish despite the acts of Cortes?) Edit: A cursory wiki search leads to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacr…

By "massacred by Cortes", surely you mean "Massacred by 700 Spanish people, and 90,000 natives who were really pissed at the Aztecs and wanted revenge". Sources indicate(if you can trust them) that the Spanish tried to stop some of the widespread atrocities that the allied natives were doing to the Aztecs, but were powerless against a group 100x their size.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#42

Post by tyingq »

h0l0cube wrote: post #4
andi999 wrote: post #3

Somehow it doesnt feel good for me to try to learn from Aztec philosophy, werent these the guys with the appaling human sacrifices?

I only know as much from the podcast I mentioned in the sibling comment, but it seem they were somewhat caricaturized. If you listen to the Podcast you learn the other side of how they were massacred by Cortes, which doesn't really cast the Spanish in a good light. (But surely we can learn from the Spanish despite the acts of Cortes?) Edit: A cursory wiki search leads to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacr…

Not excusing any behavior by Cortes. However, the sacrifices seem to have been as gruesome as typically depicted. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/06/feeding-gods-hundred...

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#43

Post by JoeDaDude »

h0l0cube wrote: post #2

The Fall of Civilizations podcast does a very good long-form story-telling about the invasion and collapse of the Aztec empire. I really do recommend it and the rest in the series. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56WPMRERgxg

Good podcast! The Aztecs (or Mexica) also have a written history from before the Europeans came. See great summaries in the two books below:

A Rain of Darts: The Mexica Aztecs by Burr Cartwright Brundage

Fifth Sun: A New History of the Aztecs by Camilla Townsend

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#44

Post by 1-more »

whatshisface wrote: post #36
edmundsauto wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off, I’m just relaying information that I found interesting. Relax and try to have an interesting conversation rather than win an internet point. I think the European criminal system was far more widespread than Aztec sacrifices, so net net maybe it would be similar. It’s also probably worth noting the religious aspect of it - people in religions sometimes seem willing to sacrifice their life for their gods, so…

> I think the European criminal system was far more widespread than Aztec sacrifices, so net net maybe it would be similar. You have to evaluate ideological systems by their net good/evil per follower, otherwise their relative scales would dominate any comparison. For example, medical malpractice has killed unimaginably more people than any suicidal cult ever has. Still, that does not mean it's better to join a suici…

I'd line the Aztecs up against the witch purges of Europe.

> Prosecutions for the crime of witchcraft reached a highpoint from 1580 to 1630 during the Counter-Reformation and the European wars of religion, when an estimated 50,000 people were burned at the stake, of which roughly 80% were women, and most often over the age of 40.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_trials_in_the_early_mode...

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#45

Post by jcranmer »

whatshisface wrote: post #31
pavlov wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thomas More, author of "Utopia", had six people burned at the stake for heresy when he was Lord Chancellor of England in 1529-32. That's no different from human sacrifice to a god.

It's difficult to weigh the difference between two extreme bads, so I understand how you could come to that conclusion. However "don't say anything on this list of things not to say" is an order that could at least by choice be complied with. Imagine yourself in Europe and also in Central America. Would you rather live under the fear of heresy laws or under the fear of human sacrifice? In the former case you could ch…

Honestly, if you gave me a choice between living in the Aztec Empire or in Spain in 1500, I would pick the Aztecs. Probably even knowing what was going to happen in 20 years and knowing that I would be alive for it.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#46

Post by hutzlibu »

edmundsauto wrote: post #23
andi999 wrote: post #3

Somehow it doesnt feel good for me to try to learn from Aztec philosophy, werent these the guys with the appaling human sacrifices?

In 1491, Charles Mann makes the case that the number of ritual sacrifices was far fewer than the number of public executions in European countries during these times. In both cases, people were killed in an effort to bind the citizenry together in the shared belief in the leadership. The initial horror at the Aztec using innocents is tempered when you think about the crimes that many in Europe would likely have commi…

"I think medieval European justice is probably not much better. "

I also rarely hear people suggesting to learn from medieval europe.

But there is still respect, for example it does bother me, that all those kings still have a "great" in their name, when what it was what they were good at, was large scale slaughtering. King Karl the great? Not for me. By that standards Hitler would be a "Great", too.

And that our awesome justice system roots in ancient rome. Which was mainly a empire. Conquering the world to steal riches and slaves.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#47

Post by lnanek2 »

whatshisface wrote: post #39
lotsofcows wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seem's a little disrespectful of others' belief systems. How can you possibly know that the God's sacrifices were a "mistake"?

Ancient religions had not evolved to be unfalsifiable like modern ones have. The Aztecs believed that they could get something by earning favor - and since they weren't actually getting anything, they were factually wrong in a way no modern religion can manage.

Is it true the Aztecs didn't get anything, though? A religion sacrificing people is a show of power likely to keep any common citizens rebelling against the priesthood. In modern times we have police kneeling on the necks of people until they die from lack of air. Both are just a means to kill powerless people to keep the powerful people in power. Our modern rulers put non-religious names on things, like "The War on Drugs", but it's the same thing.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#48

Post by hutzlibu »

throwawayay02 wrote: post #28
engineer_22 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which suggests that capturing prisoners for sacrifice was challenging Who knew... mortal combat was challenging?

The prisoner did not have to be a warrior or adult.

I don't know exactly of the aztecs, but in general the harder to get the sacrifice, the bigger the gods favour. So they probably wanted the biggest warriors, but took children as well, if possible.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#49

Post by bigbubba »

drummer wrote: post #40
andi999 wrote: post #3

Somehow it doesnt feel good for me to try to learn from Aztec philosophy, werent these the guys with the appaling human sacrifices?

History is written by the victors. It would be in their interests to demonize the Aztecs as much as possible. Stories about sacrifices should be taken with a grain of salt unless there is hard evidence. Even if there were sacrifices, it would be good to find the exact reasons and circumstances for why that occured.

> Stories about sacrifices should be taken with a grain of salt unless there is hard evidence

Such hard evidence has been found, in the form of human remains mutilated in the manner described by contemporary sources.

Re: What Day of the Dead tells us about the Aztec philosophy of happiness

#50

Post by pavlov »

jcranmer wrote: post #45
whatshisface wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's difficult to weigh the difference between two extreme bads, so I understand how you could come to that conclusion. However "don't say anything on this list of things not to say" is an order that could at least by choice be complied with. Imagine yourself in Europe and also in Central America. Would you rather live under the fear of heresy laws or under the fear of human sacrifice? In the former case you could ch…

Honestly, if you gave me a choice between living in the Aztec Empire or in Spain in 1500, I would pick the Aztecs. Probably even knowing what was going to happen in 20 years and knowing that I would be alive for it.

One would probably have better odds of living for 20 years in the Aztec empire (assuming you were a member of the ruling ethnicity).

Tenochtitlán is said to have been a beautiful city of floating gardens. In Madrid, shit flowed in open sewers on sidewalks.

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