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Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

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Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#21
Scattered thoughts, fun read, thanks.

> In the last century, two generations of elites tackled the Great Depression, World War II, and the Cold War, and came ahead on every count. They built the great dams and nuclear plants that electrified the country, and threw in the interstate highway grid for good measure. What has changed?

What! Completely overlooking the popular nature of these accomplishments. Watch interviews with even telephone operators for major government projectsin the 40s and 50s and you'll see a pride in them even a fairly senior governmental manager would not display today. People believed in these things and I think not because of their faith in elites but because they saw these instructions employing their friends and neighbors. People believed in their team. There were overlapping institutions like church which also connected people. We have a huge decline in people doing things together. Mass media could in part be to blame but Reagan style cowboy individuality might be too.

> I will say this: the struggle today is structural, not personality-dependent. Even an FDR or a Reagan would have difficulty preserving institutions whose authority has collapsed because of a radical reversal in the information environment.

Absolutely. See the failures of one Barrack Obama

> As flawed as these narratives were and are--the map was very definitely not the territory--they were coherent worldviews that helped that society navigate reality.

This accurately describes the media of the post WWII era but totally ignores the hodgepodge corrupt media landscapes of the late 19th century and early 20th century. You think people are in a bubble now. Imagine getting all your news from one or two papers which were directly party appartuses and probably ethnically isolated.

> The most disruptive innovation of this nature was surely the printing press.

I think this point is taken too often for granted. 1848 begs to differ. At the time the printing press came about regional european powers were beginning to equalize in strength. The decline of hedgemons could as easily be responsible for reforms theology as the press. You can't set up your own church unless you can keep the Pope's armies out. Once you can it's only a matter of time until controlling your regional branch of the church becomes desirable enough to break things off.

> History has never sponsored reruns of dead ideals, even as sitcoms

Oh come on. This is pure progressivism. There's no "conservation of momentum" in history. No one decides or devine's the rules of what will and won't happen next. Nothing is ever the same and nothing is ever new but change can be heavily weighted to looking much like it did before. Maybe we won't get the third reich again but am ecofascist exclusionary state could absolutely be in the cards. Just as America now greatly resembles Empiral Britain at it's zenith and turn towards decline.

> At the individual level, the nihilist is the random shooter who stalks into a gay bar or a mosque and slaughters dozens of innocent strangers.

This is borderline, "video games cause school shooting" level of association. Political nihilism is not obviously the proximate cause of lone wolf violence. In fact such violence often comes from those politically irrelevant or even activated by a sense of these acts leading to a kind of victory. Timothy McVeigh viewed his action as a successful pokticial act not as a "fuck it, burn it down" shrug.

What I can't help feeling about this writing is that it has fallen deeply for the progressive narrative that is popular in both the elite Republican and Democratic parties. Not to be confused with contemporary "progressivism". Rather the narrative that links Washington, Lincoln, TR, FDR, sometimes LBJ and sometimes Reagan into a single progression of civil cosmopolitan liberty. I'm not saying here that that narrative is necessarily wrong. But to get this far on an intellectual level and not interogate closer the conflicts which bred these changes and the places where equality has failed to find a hold on liberal democracy. It's like taking for granted labor progress as a part of liberal democracy. As if it will just happen and left movements didn't have something powerful to do with that.

Whiles it's not "end of history", it reads very "end of history but...". Regardless of my complaints it's very thought provoking but I am getting a Slavoj Zizek, lapping himself in his own rationalism, vibe.

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#22

I liked this piece in many ways. But can't help but notice that the neoliberal economy is missing from his picture. Gurri mentions it once: >The usual economic explanations explain nothing, in my opinion. Pretty sure Sanders disagrees.

Yeah, I have to give this one to Maslow. Having your basic needs met is great but that gets boring and a feeling of progress becomes a need too. Stagnation is only slightly more tolerable than regression.

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#23
post #19

> I learned early in my life that the worst democracy is infinitely better than the best-performing tyranny. So I’m happy to make a leap of faith and say that liberal democracy will still be with us, but with new and interesting permutations, at the turn of the 22nd century. This is absolutely false, would you rather live in Haiti or China? Also, what makes "Democracy" isn't really clear, you don't necessarily have a…

Yeah, that second one is such an absurd point. I would be willing to bet money that more civil wars have followed the model of spiralling, multilateral chaotic violence than one like the U.S. which had clear sides geographically and politically as well as symmetrical structures.

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#24
post #20
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once the New Deal coalition fell apart after the Civil Rights Act passed and the GOP implemented the Southern Strategy and right-to-work laws destroyed unions, the Democrats lost unions as their base of financial support. They still held on in Congress for a while, but couldn't win the Presidency until the Third Way/neoliberal Democrats and groups like the Blue Dogs took charge of the party. At that point, the Democr…

Really glad to see your comment and others pointing out what’s really happened and happening. I typically can’t get out a fifth of this in conversation before being told I’m wrong. Of course sources are dismissed outright. The one thing Democrats can do is dictate what republicans won’t back by taking it on themselves. There’s got to be a way to snap back go normalcy that way

I'm not sure that would work. The Republican party, at least the powerful do seem to believe that government can do no right. Even Donald Trump could not turn them toward fiscal stimulus nor infrastructure. Whereas democrats seem willing to take just about anything (though this has stemmed a bit under Trump).

In this case there is no middle as there is no place to compromise between "any" and "none".

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#25
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really glad to see your comment and others pointing out what’s really happened and happening. I typically can’t get out a fifth of this in conversation before being told I’m wrong. Of course sources are dismissed outright. The one thing Democrats can do is dictate what republicans won’t back by taking it on themselves. There’s got to be a way to snap back go normalcy that way

I'm not sure that would work. The Republican party, at least the powerful do seem to believe that government can do no right. Even Donald Trump could not turn them toward fiscal stimulus nor infrastructure. Whereas democrats seem willing to take just about anything (though this has stemmed a bit under Trump). In this case there is no middle as there is no place to compromise between "any" and "none".

> Even Donald Trump could not turn them toward fiscal stimulus nor infrastructure.

He can't pass an infrastructure plan because anything of that scope requires persuasion and compromise across many competing interests, things I believe he's constitutionally incapable of. It's the same reason he never had a healthcare bill. If he can't strong arm a deal, he can't get it done at all. I think he actually used the bully pulpit of the presidency to pretty poor effect as far as that goes.

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#26
post #18
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're misreading Gurri; according to his reasoning, any measure is almost impossible (including regulation or anti-trust). From the post: >"Liberal democracy is still the only game in town. You can’t compete with it – but you can destroy it. You can smash it to bits and put nothing in its place. You can bring down an avenging chaos on a corrupt world. So when you ask whether today’s protests will ever lead t…

Is it though? It seems China with its repressive apparatus put a clamp on Inteenet and free flow of information. Lot of his argument fall apart, if there is an alternative he isn't willing to entertain.

Not sure who you're responding to; I replied to the grandparent on the basis of logic they purported to agree with. You seem to disagree with the article itself, and the paradigm described by its subject.

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#27
post #5
post #2

Long read (already read it previously), but very good. Should be more fodder for breaking up and beefing up regulations on tech companies

In the interview Martin Gurri characterizes the left thusly: > Today the big issue is… what? Wearing MAGA hats? Racism certainly isn’t a divisive issue. Everybody’s against it. Capitalism isn’t much of an issue. Nobody even talks about class or poverty any more. Identity’s too diffuse and dispersed – if identitarians started fighting, it would look more like a scrum than a civil war. That's not honest. It would be li…

It's widely recognized by the actual American left that neoliberals have taken over the Democratic party, but it's less often said that the Republican party is mutating into a worker's party, differentiated largely on social class. Political correctness: it's just a social class differentiator; keeping the filthy workmen off of our proverbial lawns. Democrats are now the party of the managerial/professional/muh collitch class and minorities, and Republicans are the party of the working class and ... I guess its historical association with small businessmen holds. The history of who passed NAFTA (back almost 30 years ago now, mind you) is pretty irrelevant: nobody in the present day Democratic party is talking about revoking it (2016 Bernie might have; I miss 2016 Bernie); it was the modern worker's party, not the past workers party who wants to renegotiate this disaster.

Lasch saw this at work in the 1970s, FWIIW, which is why Gurri is talking about him. Lasch was an actual Marxist, though he eventually made common cause with Paleocons because he saw the cheerful "left wing" atomization of the family as incredibly destructive for working people, which, of course, was true.

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#28
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the interview Martin Gurri characterizes the left thusly: > Today the big issue is… what? Wearing MAGA hats? Racism certainly isn’t a divisive issue. Everybody’s against it. Capitalism isn’t much of an issue. Nobody even talks about class or poverty any more. Identity’s too diffuse and dispersed – if identitarians started fighting, it would look more like a scrum than a civil war. That's not honest. It would be li…

It's widely recognized by the actual American left that neoliberals have taken over the Democratic party, but it's less often said that the Republican party is mutating into a worker's party, differentiated largely on social class. Political correctness: it's just a social class differentiator; keeping the filthy workmen off of our proverbial lawns. Democrats are now the party of the managerial/professional/muh colli…

Putting "working class" and "minorities" in separate buckets is explicitly racist. By whatever definition you use, minorities are more likely to be working class.

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#29
post #26
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it though? It seems China with its repressive apparatus put a clamp on Inteenet and free flow of information. Lot of his argument fall apart, if there is an alternative he isn't willing to entertain.

Not sure who you're responding to; I replied to the grandparent on the basis of logic they purported to agree with. You seem to disagree with the article itself, and the paradigm described by its subject.

Was replying to

> any measure is almost impossible

But yeah, my beef is with the Gurri. Not all of his description line up with reality.

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#30
post #19

> I learned early in my life that the worst democracy is infinitely better than the best-performing tyranny. So I’m happy to make a leap of faith and say that liberal democracy will still be with us, but with new and interesting permutations, at the turn of the 22nd century. This is absolutely false, would you rather live in Haiti or China? Also, what makes "Democracy" isn't really clear, you don't necessarily have a…

Yeah, that second one is such an absurd point. I would be willing to bet money that more civil wars have followed the model of spiralling, multilateral chaotic violence than one like the U.S. which had clear sides geographically and politically as well as symmetrical structures.

I think he'd argue that "spiraling, multilateral violence" is not a civil war.

I could be wrong.

I think he's right, though, that mostly you need young men hopped up on testosterone for a conflict like a civil war to happen.

I think if you're over twenty-five, you're unlikely to volunteer for things that are likely to kill you, and that actually forms strong backpressure against large-scale violence in the US.

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