U.S. Feds Seized Nearly $1B in Bitcoin from Wallet Linked to Silk Road • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Feds Seized Nearly $1B in Bitcoin from Wallet Linked to Silk Road

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Post by dredmorbius » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 1:44 AM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #106

gojomo wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oddly enough, in the case of other "Anonymity-Enhanced Cryptocurrencies" ("AECs"), the DoJ has taken the position that they'd rather not recirculate them. See https://twitter.com/jerrybrito/status/1314254265251225600 >, where it's reported: > In most cases, the Department [of Justice] does not liquidate seized or forfeited AECs, as doing so allows them to re-enter the stream of commerce for potential future criminal…

Yeah, let's burn these bad coins, thus reducing the supply and raising the net worth of everyone who invested in them. That'll really teach people for using Monero!

Asset inflation is less useful for currency.

Though it's unclear still what Bitcoin's principle role is. If it's more an asset, then yes, destroying coins is a benefit to current holders.

Re: U.S. Feds Seized Nearly $1B in Bitcoin from Wallet Linked to Silk Road

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Post by stjohnswarts » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 1:48 AM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #313

paulpauper wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not unless they can prove it was ill-gotten. It has to go through a trial

> It has to go through a trial Quite literally. They file suit against the items themselves, and always win.

Hard to win when you can't actually testify :) . CAF is such a joke. It really needs to stop (some success at that in some states). The Founding Fathers would never have allowed it.

Re: U.S. Feds Seized Nearly $1B in Bitcoin from Wallet Linked to Silk Road

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Post by sfifs » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 1:48 AM UTC

StavrosK wrote: post #189

seibelj wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Luckily there is Monero https://www.getmonero.org/

I don't know why Monero isn't more widespread. It's anonymous, cheaper than Bitcoin, and faster. Plus, there's xmr.to, which has integration with a bunch of wallets so you can send Monero directly to a Bitcoin address and they'll convert transparently.

Well if it becomes popular, holding and dealing with Monero will be made illegal and ISPs will be tasked with blocking it.

Governments can be very vindictive if their tax revenue is threatened.

If you have a use case for Monero, you're better off it remains exotic enough that it flies under the radar.

Re: U.S. Feds Seized Nearly $1B in Bitcoin from Wallet Linked to Silk Road

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Post by sfifs » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 1:55 AM UTC

jjones2 wrote: post #208

gamblor956 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same is true of cryptocurrency. Try accessing it without power and internet.

You can obtain you Bitcoin with a portable power generator and satellite dish if you are on the move or cannot access conventional utilities.

Sure but to get satellite internet, you need to provide some id to the satellite internet company and they can probably track you back.

Re: U.S. Feds Seized Nearly $1B in Bitcoin from Wallet Linked to Silk Road

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Post by jacques_chester » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 2:19 AM UTC

doggosphere wrote: post #321

jacques_chester wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd be fairly well boned on obstruction of justice and conspiracy to obstruct justice. Any brilliant plan you think up in the course of a few seconds will be likely to run into the fact that the common law has a thousand years of collective experience.

I didn't know we have thousands of years of breaking encryption and concepts like zero knowledge proofs. There's no brilliant plan, there's just mathematics.

You don't understand my point at all. Which is also my point.

Re: U.S. Feds Seized Nearly $1B in Bitcoin from Wallet Linked to Silk Road

#336

Post by doggosphere » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 2:27 AM UTC

jacques_chester wrote: post #335

doggosphere wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't know we have thousands of years of breaking encryption and concepts like zero knowledge proofs. There's no brilliant plan, there's just mathematics.

You don't understand my point at all. Which is also my point.

You just said it would be obstruction of justice, yet a transaction occurring from a known wallet while a suspect is in custody is not enough to prove that. You'd have to prove the conspiracy. You're hand-waving the details away in an attempt to dismiss the argument.

What does the prosecutor do when the funds get moved and the suspect is under lock and key? Because of the decentralized nature of crypto, you cannot even show who moved the funds. All you know is that they were moved.

So if you're a prosecutor, what are you going to show the judge to persuade them that an obstruction of justice has occurred?

Re: U.S. Feds Seized Nearly $1B in Bitcoin from Wallet Linked to Silk Road

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Post by jollofricepeas » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 2:37 AM UTC

55555 wrote: post #330

strgcmc wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO the short answer is, yes pardons can seemingly be bought in the Trumpian era of American politics. Whether $1B is enough, I don't necessarily know, but I don't see why the likelihood is something to dismiss out of hand.

Let's not make Trump seem responsible for our incredibly overtly corrupt country. Bill Clinton was a democrat, was president before Trump, and is notorious for his seemingly-corrupt pardons. I'm no history buff so I can't go back further than my own lifespan for further examples but I bet America has been this way for a long, long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_pardon_controvers... https://en.wikipe…

Ehh, don’t believe every political talking point you hear.

You should read Swiss investigative journalist, Daniel Amman’s King of Oil.

The furor over these pardons including the Marc Rich pardon was 100% political.

Clinton pardoned relatively the same amount of people as previous presidents but with a heavy focus on “leftists.”

Also, Marc Rich had left the US before he started working across trade embargoes and singlehandedly built the OTC oil market. He also worked actively with the US on covert oil sales while being prosecuted by the DOJ.

Read: - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King_of_Oil

Re: U.S. Feds Seized Nearly $1B in Bitcoin from Wallet Linked to Silk Road

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Post by ddingus » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 3:25 AM UTC

doggosphere wrote: post #320

ddingus wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does work very similar to valuable assets stored somewhere though, and the law as well as other means and methods are long established.

You should look up coin joins (tumbling) as well as Monero protocols. It will blow your mind. Introducing this kind of complexity into tracing assets makes things very difficult.

The real world value entry and exit points are ever present.

Mix it all one wants. It remains extremely difficult to avoid others knowing value, otherwise unaccounted for, finding it's way back. That plus a shake down of everyone the person ever knew remains potent, relevant and effective.

I have followed the rough tech developments. None of what I wrote is impacted too much. Obtaining real world value of any significance is where all the weak points are, and where long established means and methods play well.

People are super leaky. Records everywhere, redundant in many cases too.

Like I said, good luck!

Re: U.S. Feds Seized Nearly $1B in Bitcoin from Wallet Linked to Silk Road

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Post by listenallyall » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 4:20 AM UTC

doggosphere wrote: post #314

thinkloop wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems fishy tho, you'll probably have to prove that, one of the core pruposes of judges is choosing who to believe, there is no such thing as a 100% fact.

The burden of proof falls on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Ex: Being in the vicinity of a crime when it takes place may make you a suspect (aka "fishy"), but this alone is not enough to prove guilt.

Buddy there are plenty of people in jail right now based on extremely flimsy evidence such as simply being in the vicinity of a crime.

All your comments in the thread are about "proving it," when, at the end of the day, it's up to 12 people in a box, most of whom don't know the first thing about bitcoin. Refusal to decrypt, wife moving Russia, etc... The government is going to make an extremely convincing case, with plenty of witnesses and all the time and money and lawyers they need. Meanwhile you'll be communicating with your defense lawyers from behind bars. You might be right -- maybe they can't prove any ill-intent -- but that's not a gamble with the odds in your favor.

Re: U.S. Feds Seized Nearly $1B in Bitcoin from Wallet Linked to Silk Road

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Post by jcrawfordor » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 4:30 AM UTC

ag56 wrote: post #301

modeless wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will auction it off as soon as possible like they did several times before. I'm not sure why the bitcoin price has gone up in response to this news, because it means more supply is coming to the market soonish. These coins might have been presumed lost before. Certainly they would not have been able to be sold on any legitimate exchange. Now they will be washed clean and enter the markets. On the other hand, a b…

> Certainly they would not have been able to be sold on any legitimate exchange. May I ask why? (Genuine, not a crypto expert). Do exchanges by default trace any bitcoins back and see if they were connected with illegality? Is there a list of tainted bitcoin addresses that are effectively worthless?

Many reputable exchanges and other Bitcoin service providers use anti-fraud/AML services which will flag transactions involving Bitcoin with an apparent history of laundering or other malfeasance. This is more or less mandatory in the US and many other countries via AML treaties. There are, of course, exchanges with no such scruples, but converting Bitcoin to currency does become more difficult when it has a known suspicious background, particularly if you want to deal with an exchange in a country with reputable financial regulation.

This is of course similar to the situation with conventional currencies. Banks will refuse to open an account if they suspect the money you're depositing is laundered. Bitcoin just makes this process far more amenable to automation, since detecting a history of laundering becomes a graph analysis problem.