Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public • Hacker News Board

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#11

Post by pdonis » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 12:46 AM UTC

wahern wrote: post #5

kickout wrote: post #2

Long read (already read it previously), but very good. Should be more fodder for breaking up and beefing up regulations on tech companies

In the interview Martin Gurri characterizes the left thusly: > Today the big issue is… what? Wearing MAGA hats? Racism certainly isn’t a divisive issue. Everybody’s against it. Capitalism isn’t much of an issue. Nobody even talks about class or poverty any more. Identity’s too diffuse and dispersed – if identitarians started fighting, it would look more like a scrum than a civil war. That's not honest. It would be li…

> from the left's perspective all the agreed upon societal ills--e.g. loss of blue collar jobs to free trade, lack of income growth combined with increasing income disparity, corporate oligopolies, etc--are a consequence of conservative, Republican, policies

But even if this is accepted for the sake of argument (I'm not sure it's entirely true, but let's assume it is), the left has not done what a sane political party should do when these things happen: penalize their own party leaders who let it happen. If Clinton allowed NAFTA to pass despite his own party's fierce opposition, why didn't the party fire him? Why didn't some other candidate beat him in the 1996 primaries? Why did the Democrats continue to protect him despite the fact that he's a womanizer and a liar? And why does the party machine of which he and his wife are poster child beneficiaries continue to run the party despite the fact that it obviously doesn't represent the will of the people? If it did, Bernie Sanders would have been the Democratic candidate for President in 2016, and again in 2020 (and he might have won in 2016).

In other words, I think Gurri is correct that the left talks a lot about reforms it says it wants, but doesn't back up its talk with action.

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#12

Post by js2 » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 4:07 AM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #11

wahern wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the interview Martin Gurri characterizes the left thusly: > Today the big issue is… what? Wearing MAGA hats? Racism certainly isn’t a divisive issue. Everybody’s against it. Capitalism isn’t much of an issue. Nobody even talks about class or poverty any more. Identity’s too diffuse and dispersed – if identitarians started fighting, it would look more like a scrum than a civil war. That's not honest. It would be li…

> from the left's perspective all the agreed upon societal ills--e.g. loss of blue collar jobs to free trade, lack of income growth combined with increasing income disparity, corporate oligopolies, etc--are a consequence of conservative, Republican, policies But even if this is accepted for the sake of argument (I'm not sure it's entirely true, but let's assume it is), the left has not done what a sane political part…

Once the New Deal coalition fell apart after the Civil Rights Act passed and the GOP implemented the Southern Strategy and right-to-work laws destroyed unions, the Democrats lost unions as their base of financial support. They still held on in Congress for a while, but couldn't win the Presidency until the Third Way/neoliberal Democrats and groups like the Blue Dogs took charge of the party. At that point, the Democrats became captured (at least financially) by Wall Street and rich urban professionals who were socially liberal but fiscally conservative. There's no "firing" Clinton at that point. The party has been captured. The Democrats are also a much more diverse party since they are as much "not-GOP" as anything else. Why should a conservative Black voter vote Democratic? Of course they shouldn't, but the GOP was pretty explicitly home to racists for decades.

Both parties continue to self-sort in unhealthy ways. The GOP needs more diversity (but of course, is doubling-down on gerrymandering) and the Democrats, frankly, need less. I'd love to trade off some fiscally conservative Democrats for some working-collar populist Republicans. Bernie's support came from appealing to what used to be the base of the Democratic party: the working-class. But it's not enough voters in the raucous big-tent Democratic party to win a primary, and likely not the general election.

We also can't even have a serious conversation about policy since the GOP attacks everything the Democrats do as socialism.

Anyway, to your last point: the left is part of the Democratic party, but it doesn't have a strong-enough hand to play.

Also, look, voters are weird. I volunteered as a Democratic poll greeter here in NC with two women, both professionals, a white woman originally from Cincinnati and a Black woman originally from New Jersey. They'd both voted for Biden in the primary. I was like, what, why? Why didn't you pick someone more progressive? They both said: "because Biden is who we thought would make the strongest general election candidate." So they're not even voting on who they think is best, but who they think the rest of America will accept.

p.s. don't be so hard on Hillary. Let's not forget that she expended a lot of political capital trying to pass universal healthcare. She got killed on that, by Democrats and Republicans alike. I think that really changed her idea of what was possible in politics in the US. She is not the devil she's been made out to be.

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#13

Post by bleepblorp » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 5:21 AM UTC

wahern wrote: post #5

kickout wrote: post #2

Long read (already read it previously), but very good. Should be more fodder for breaking up and beefing up regulations on tech companies

In the interview Martin Gurri characterizes the left thusly: > Today the big issue is… what? Wearing MAGA hats? Racism certainly isn’t a divisive issue. Everybody’s against it. Capitalism isn’t much of an issue. Nobody even talks about class or poverty any more. Identity’s too diffuse and dispersed – if identitarians started fighting, it would look more like a scrum than a civil war. That's not honest. It would be li…

Quoting Martin Gurri as quoted in the parent post, NOT the words of wahern in parent post itself:

> Today the big issue is… what? Wearing MAGA hats? Racism certainly isn’t a divisive issue. Everybody’s against it.

In light of the past months of Black Lives Matter protests, counter-protests by white supremacists (who often enjoyed the support of law enforcement), and overt race baiting by Trump and his surrogates, claiming that racism isn't a divisive issue in American society is tone deaf at best.

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#14

Post by TwoNineFive » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 5:34 AM UTC

wahern wrote: post #5

kickout wrote: post #2

Long read (already read it previously), but very good. Should be more fodder for breaking up and beefing up regulations on tech companies

In the interview Martin Gurri characterizes the left thusly: > Today the big issue is… what? Wearing MAGA hats? Racism certainly isn’t a divisive issue. Everybody’s against it. Capitalism isn’t much of an issue. Nobody even talks about class or poverty any more. Identity’s too diffuse and dispersed – if identitarians started fighting, it would look more like a scrum than a civil war. That's not honest. It would be li…

Listen to the May 25, 2020 Econ Talk episode where Gurri is interviewed (Russ Roberts sucks BTW but that's another issue). I don't think he's being dishonest, he's delusional. His brain just can't accept that mainstream fascism has arrived and is in his face. And yes, I agree with you that the reason is that he's got some regressive and authoritarian ideals and is probably a registered republican based on his comments and behavior that I've seen.

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#15

Post by 8bitsrule » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 6:14 AM UTC

I liked this piece in many ways. But can't help but notice that the neoliberal economy is missing from his picture. Gurri mentions it once:

>The usual economic explanations explain nothing, in my opinion.

Pretty sure Sanders disagrees.

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#16

Post by pdonis » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 6:16 AM UTC

js2 wrote: post #12

pdonis wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> from the left's perspective all the agreed upon societal ills--e.g. loss of blue collar jobs to free trade, lack of income growth combined with increasing income disparity, corporate oligopolies, etc--are a consequence of conservative, Republican, policies But even if this is accepted for the sake of argument (I'm not sure it's entirely true, but let's assume it is), the left has not done what a sane political part…

Once the New Deal coalition fell apart after the Civil Rights Act passed and the GOP implemented the Southern Strategy and right-to-work laws destroyed unions, the Democrats lost unions as their base of financial support. They still held on in Congress for a while, but couldn't win the Presidency until the Third Way/neoliberal Democrats and groups like the Blue Dogs took charge of the party. At that point, the Democr…

> Both parties continue to self-sort in unhealthy ways.

I agree.

> the left is part of the Democratic party, but it doesn't have a strong-enough hand to play

If by "the left" you mean people like Bernie Sanders, I agree. But his hand isn't strong enough not because he's a leftist, but because he's an outsider. The insider policies of the Democratic party are just as leftist; they're just a different flavor of leftist--roughly speaking, New Left vs. Sanders-style Old Left, hardball power politics vs. "softer" socialism. That's also why the Democrats now are just fine allying with Wall Street and big business: power politics needs financing, and that's where the money is.

> don't be so hard on Hillary

You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm also entitled to mine.

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#17

Post by p1necone » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 6:24 AM UTC

bleepblorp wrote: post #13

wahern wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the interview Martin Gurri characterizes the left thusly: > Today the big issue is… what? Wearing MAGA hats? Racism certainly isn’t a divisive issue. Everybody’s against it. Capitalism isn’t much of an issue. Nobody even talks about class or poverty any more. Identity’s too diffuse and dispersed – if identitarians started fighting, it would look more like a scrum than a civil war. That's not honest. It would be li…

Quoting Martin Gurri as quoted in the parent post, NOT the words of wahern in parent post itself : > Today the big issue is… what? Wearing MAGA hats? Racism certainly isn’t a divisive issue. Everybody’s against it. In light of the past months of Black Lives Matter protests, counter-protests by white supremacists (who often enjoyed the support of law enforcement), and overt race baiting by Trump and his surrogates, cl…

I thought this was bizarre too, is he living under a rock? Or is he being intentionally ignorant?

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#18

Post by Ygg2 » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 7:01 AM UTC

nickff wrote: post #4

kickout wrote: post #2

Long read (already read it previously), but very good. Should be more fodder for breaking up and beefing up regulations on tech companies

I think you're misreading Gurri; according to his reasoning, any measure is almost impossible (including regulation or anti-trust). From the post: >"Liberal democracy is still the only game in town. You can’t compete with it – but you can destroy it. You can smash it to bits and put nothing in its place. You can bring down an avenging chaos on a corrupt world. So when you ask whether today’s protests will ever lead t…

Is it though?

It seems China with its repressive apparatus put a clamp on Inteenet and free flow of information.

Lot of his argument fall apart, if there is an alternative he isn't willing to entertain.

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#19

Post by Kephael » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 7:03 AM UTC

> I learned early in my life that the worst democracy is infinitely better than the best-performing tyranny. So I’m happy to make a leap of faith and say that liberal democracy will still be with us, but with new and interesting permutations, at the turn of the 22nd century.

This is absolutely false, would you rather live in Haiti or China? Also, what makes "Democracy" isn't really clear, you don't necessarily have a say in what you'd like in Democracy. It's just a vehicle to give government legitimacy, even if the votes don't actually matter or are even real.

> We can't even have a civil war, as it's impossible to draw the lines.

This is more false hope, it's very easy to have a civil war even without clear lines. Aggrieved parties just need to pick up a rifle and attack their enemies. You don't need uniforms and flags to have an insurgency.

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#20

Post by ianai » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 7:07 AM UTC

js2 wrote: post #12

pdonis wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> from the left's perspective all the agreed upon societal ills--e.g. loss of blue collar jobs to free trade, lack of income growth combined with increasing income disparity, corporate oligopolies, etc--are a consequence of conservative, Republican, policies But even if this is accepted for the sake of argument (I'm not sure it's entirely true, but let's assume it is), the left has not done what a sane political part…

Once the New Deal coalition fell apart after the Civil Rights Act passed and the GOP implemented the Southern Strategy and right-to-work laws destroyed unions, the Democrats lost unions as their base of financial support. They still held on in Congress for a while, but couldn't win the Presidency until the Third Way/neoliberal Democrats and groups like the Blue Dogs took charge of the party. At that point, the Democr…

Really glad to see your comment and others pointing out what’s really happened and happening. I typically can’t get out a fifth of this in conversation before being told I’m wrong. Of course sources are dismissed outright.

The one thing Democrats can do is dictate what republicans won’t back by taking it on themselves. There’s got to be a way to snap back go normalcy that way