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Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

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Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#4
post #2

Long read (already read it previously), but very good. Should be more fodder for breaking up and beefing up regulations on tech companies

I think you're misreading Gurri; according to his reasoning, any measure is almost impossible (including regulation or anti-trust). From the post:

>"Liberal democracy is still the only game in town. You can’t compete with it – but you can destroy it. You can smash it to bits and put nothing in its place. You can bring down an avenging chaos on a corrupt world. So when you ask whether today’s protests will ever lead to anything, the answer is probably not. They have little positive content."

If we use his paradigm to analyze the 'tech situation', the most likely outcome is furious protests, with no ability to cohere around any specific action.

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#5
post #2

Long read (already read it previously), but very good. Should be more fodder for breaking up and beefing up regulations on tech companies

In the interview Martin Gurri characterizes the left thusly:

> Today the big issue is… what? Wearing MAGA hats? Racism certainly isn’t a divisive issue. Everybody’s against it. Capitalism isn’t much of an issue. Nobody even talks about class or poverty any more. Identity’s too diffuse and dispersed – if identitarians started fighting, it would look more like a scrum than a civil war.

That's not honest. It would be like saying that Reagan supporters in the 1980s only cared about welfare queens, without any substantive policy preferences regarding industrial regulation, unions, defense, etc. In reality "welfare queens" was short-hand for all the substantive policy preferences demanded by conservatives, as well as a statement about the perceived consequences of the excesses of liberal policies. Similar, MAGA hat derision is a liberal statement about the irony of promoting conservative, free market, anti-social safety net policies to "Make America Great Again" when from the left's perspective all the agreed upon societal ills--e.g. loss of blue collar jobs to free trade, lack of income growth combined with increasing income disparity, corporate oligopolies, etc--are a consequence of conservative, Republican, policies. The GOP was the architect of both NAFTA and China entering GATT/WTO.[1] The "neoliberal" movement in the Democratic party was a conservative movement; it was an adoption by some Democrats of conservative Republican economic policies in an attempt to win over increasingly Republican-leaning voters who had been successfully persuaded that traditionally Democratic economic policies (e.g. antagonism to free trade, pro union, "tax & spend" entitlements, etc) were hostile to job growth. And just as Democrats were scrambling to realign their economic platforms with the rightward shift in the electorate, so too was Labor doing exactly the same thing in the U.K. Thatcher and Reagan ushered in the preeminence of conservative economic policies, and Blair and Clinton were late-stage responses to that. To then blame Democrats and their "neoliberal" policies for the legacy of conservative (classically "liberal" outside the Anglosphere--note the semantic games) economic policies is... rich.

I'm sorry, but either Martin Gurri is less than 25 years old, or he's willfully misrepresenting actual, factual, not-particularly-distant political history. I'm pretty sure it's the latter, and he's simply using obtuse, scholarly-sounding terminology to sell a constructed narrative popular among far too many conservatives. I'm familiar with the tactic having heard plenty of similar B.S. political fantasies (e.g. Marxist, Fascist, etc, arguments) that build plausible seeming narratives around hidden, false premises.

There's plenty of blame to go around regarding contemporary cultural divisions. The conservatives were right in their criticisms of the left's identity politics and victim culture. Indeed, identity politics has swallowed up everybody, and it turns out the empowered and entitled often make for the most sympathetic victims of all. But let's be clear about who promoted what, when, and why before we start naming our oppressors and nominating our saviors.

[1] When NAFTA passed under a Clinton presidency, 2/3 of House Republicans voted for it (including Newt Gingrich, who successfully helped to push through special "fast-track" voting rules), while only 1/3 of Democrats voted for it. President Clinton, like Tony Blair in the U.K., was seen as successful precisely because of his conservative economic policies. Clinton also supported GOP authored welfare reform, including block grants to states (which Democrats feared would be directed away from the working class), despite fierce opposition from his own party.

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#6
post #2

Long read (already read it previously), but very good. Should be more fodder for breaking up and beefing up regulations on tech companies

That's a curious reading of the post.

I think he would say that the ongoing fallout is caused by structural changes in communication networks, and that the players who happen to be at the top of the pile economically are incidental to that process.

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#7
post #4
post #2

Long read (already read it previously), but very good. Should be more fodder for breaking up and beefing up regulations on tech companies

I think you're misreading Gurri; according to his reasoning, any measure is almost impossible (including regulation or anti-trust). From the post: >"Liberal democracy is still the only game in town. You can’t compete with it – but you can destroy it. You can smash it to bits and put nothing in its place. You can bring down an avenging chaos on a corrupt world. So when you ask whether today’s protests will ever lead t…

Right. It's very unclear just what "breaking up the tech companies" really means. There's a few interesting ideas, for sure, but structure change could very well make it worse, not better.

They could start by not putting themselves in the position of being arbiters of information. As Gurri said, a little humility would go a long way.

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#8
post #4
post #2

Long read (already read it previously), but very good. Should be more fodder for breaking up and beefing up regulations on tech companies

I think you're misreading Gurri; according to his reasoning, any measure is almost impossible (including regulation or anti-trust). From the post: >"Liberal democracy is still the only game in town. You can’t compete with it – but you can destroy it. You can smash it to bits and put nothing in its place. You can bring down an avenging chaos on a corrupt world. So when you ask whether today’s protests will ever lead t…

>If we use his paradigm to analyze the 'tech situation', the most likely outcome is furious protests, with no ability to cohere around any specific action.

Who exactly is going to participate in "furious protests" against breaking up mega tech companies? lol

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#9
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're misreading Gurri; according to his reasoning, any measure is almost impossible (including regulation or anti-trust). From the post: >"Liberal democracy is still the only game in town. You can’t compete with it – but you can destroy it. You can smash it to bits and put nothing in its place. You can bring down an avenging chaos on a corrupt world. So when you ask whether today’s protests will ever lead t…

>If we use his paradigm to analyze the 'tech situation', the most likely outcome is furious protests, with no ability to cohere around any specific action. Who exactly is going to participate in "furious protests" against breaking up mega tech companies? lol

>"Who exactly is going to participate in "furious protests" against breaking up mega tech companies? lol"

... The furious protests would be against the tech companies, but those protesters would not be able to cohere around a specific action.

The closest analogy would be Occupy Wall St. There were large protests, and not many counter-protests (other than the tangentially related Tea Party ones, which were anti-government, not pro-Wall St.).

Re: Martin Gurri and the ungovernable public

#10
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're misreading Gurri; according to his reasoning, any measure is almost impossible (including regulation or anti-trust). From the post: >"Liberal democracy is still the only game in town. You can’t compete with it – but you can destroy it. You can smash it to bits and put nothing in its place. You can bring down an avenging chaos on a corrupt world. So when you ask whether today’s protests will ever lead t…

>If we use his paradigm to analyze the 'tech situation', the most likely outcome is furious protests, with no ability to cohere around any specific action. Who exactly is going to participate in "furious protests" against breaking up mega tech companies? lol

And if someone does, will anyone ever find out? They'll be "deplatformed" everywhere if they even _think_ of doing something coherent.
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