I find it extremely amusing that the US government has over the last several years become one of the world's largest traders in bitcoin. It's not quite the path many were predicting back in the early 2010s, but Bitcoin has been full of surprises. If history is any guide, the bitcoin will be auctioned off sooner rather than later.
u just learned that the us is even a trader of bitcoin at all. you say this not referring to a seizure, right?
U.S. Feds Seized Nearly $1B in Bitcoin from Wallet Linked to Silk Road
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Re: U.S. Feds Seized Nearly $1B in Bitcoin from Wallet Linked to Silk Road
#212TFA says the suit seeks to seize the $1B in coins after an unknown hacker gained access to the funds. Forfeiture doesn’t mean destroying the coins. If the Fed can gain access to the coins they will auction them off. But if I understand correctly, this is the Fed basically laying a legal claim to and flagging coins that it doesn’t control therefore making them much more difficult to redeem, after seeing that they move…
TFA says that the coins were already seized by the U.S. government, not that they intend to do so. With respect to the lawsuit, note that this is how civil forfeiture works: the "defendant" is the property seized. In almost all U.S. jurisdictions, a civil forfeiture lawsuit can't be filed until the prosecuting agency is actual in custodial possession of the property. The point of the lawsuit is to give the lawful own…
Re: U.S. Feds Seized Nearly $1B in Bitcoin from Wallet Linked to Silk Road
#213I'm not the most saavy BTC person, but isn't part of the allure of bitcoin the ability to evade this type of seizure?
The point of bitcoin is that you can drive across the country "carrying" $1B worth of assets, and if you get pulled over by the cops it won't be found. Try doing that with gold bars or stacks of cash.
Re: U.S. Feds Seized Nearly $1B in Bitcoin from Wallet Linked to Silk Road
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If such thing were to happen, and afterwards you complied, then there would be little grounds to hold you for contempt of court. The court system is not a computer program you can fool with clever tricks. If you are facing a court order to surrender money or other assets and try to evade it by moving the money around, you are just going to find yourself in deeper trouble. People have tried it before.
How do you surrender assets you don't have control over? I'm merely pointing out that the differences are not superficial.
Re: U.S. Feds Seized Nearly $1B in Bitcoin from Wallet Linked to Silk Road
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, that's generally how the tracing works. In one extreme case (at the state level), prosecutor successfully seized the house of the parent of a defendant, where the defendant had made one gift mortgage payment on behalf of their parents, who had timely paid the mortgage for several years and were not at any risk of being unable to pay their mortgage.
And with a total lack of fungibility things could get even crazier with crypto. Imagine losing your house because you cashed out some BTC you got off of some guy you don't know for cash that Chainalysis says is linked to the Silk Road five transactions back so it is the proceeds of crime.
Re: U.S. Feds Seized Nearly $1B in Bitcoin from Wallet Linked to Silk Road
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
Lehmann alone lost almost 300B USD of others peoples money. Banks are safe until they aren’t.
Not even remotely the same thing. Lehmann Bros was an investment bank, meaning that the value of accounts was tied to the value of the securities investments contained therein, and Lehmann engaged in trading activity on behalf of those account holders. (And note: by 2013, all of Lehman's account holders had been made whole for their losses https://www.ft.com/content/f06762de-cf94-11e2-a050-00144feab... ) Savings acco…
Well, Mt. Gox and Bitcoin? Not even remotely the same thing.
Re: U.S. Feds Seized Nearly $1B in Bitcoin from Wallet Linked to Silk Road
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
If they did, they lied to the court. "On November 3, 2020, Individual X signed a Consent and Agreement to Forfeiture with the U.S. Attorney’s Office, Northern District of California. In that agreement, Individual X, consented to the forfeiture of the Defendant Property to the United States government."
Nothing there about "Individual X" being Ross Ulbritcht
Re: U.S. Feds Seized Nearly $1B in Bitcoin from Wallet Linked to Silk Road
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're assuming there actually is an Individual X. It is possible he was fabricated in order to hide that the Feds indeed did gain the password for the wallet.
Maybe it took 8 years to crack the password?
Re: U.S. Feds Seized Nearly $1B in Bitcoin from Wallet Linked to Silk Road
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If such thing were to happen, and afterwards you complied, then there would be little grounds to hold you for contempt of court. The court system is not a computer program you can fool with clever tricks. If you are facing a court order to surrender money or other assets and try to evade it by moving the money around, you are just going to find yourself in deeper trouble. People have tried it before.
How do you surrender assets you don't have control over? I'm merely pointing out that the differences are not superficial.
Criminal law is all about intent.
So, here's an example of the non superficial elements here:
Say, one gets the "gimme your coin" order, says no, goes to jail.
While in jail, the coins move, OK?
Person in jail cries, "Uncle!" and gives up the wallet.
Authorities find it empty.
Who had what intent?
If the intent is to circumvent the order? That's an additional crime period. It may involve others too, who may also be committing crimes. The intent will link it all back together somehow, and that's what the law will resolve. Crucially, the person supposed to give up coin won't end up with coin, because they are ordered to give it up.
If the intent was not to circumvent the order? Someone, somewhere did something with intent, and that intent will boil down to theft from law enforcement, who is entitled to that coin, due to the order. That person would now be a criminal, and on it goes. The person ordered to give up coin still won't end up with it, and someone else is now being hunted down for having stolen coins from law enforcement, who will do whatever it takes to end up with the coins so ordered to them.
Put in very simple terms, understanding intent and law can all look like this:
Say we find a dead person. Is that a crime?
If anyone else, other than the dead person, anywhere, intended that dead person end up dead, yes! It's murder. Could be for hire, vengeful, whatever.
Maybe someone was stupid. That's a different intent, and a different crime. Maybe it's manslaughter of some kind. Could be reckless, for example, or negligent.
If there was no intent associated with the dead person then there is no crime, and we've just, sadly, got a dead person.
Maybe the person stepped in front of a bus. That's suicide.
In all cases, there is a dead person.
Intent determines whether there are also criminals, what their crime is, and all that other stuff.
Make sense?