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New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

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Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#191
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have had treatment-resistant major depression for eight years. During that time I have had long periods with extensive, frequent social interaction and bonding. My depression encompasses most of the time I've known my now-wife, repairing a broken relationship with my father, the acquisition of one new close friend, and the coming and going of many transient relationships. I don't know what the cure for my own case…

> CBT trains you to arrest those thoughts and replace them with thoughts that are constructive This part is useful to everyone well beyond the scope of depression. Simply becoming aware of one's thoughts is a revelation. Our ability to ride a stream of thoughts without being actively conscious to them is unfortunate; it must have some evolutionary reason, but it also means we can repeat and experience many bad feelin…

> Our ability to ride a stream of thoughts without being actively conscious to them is unfortunate; it must have some evolutionary reason

I suspect that the evolutionary reason is rather mundane; introspection (thinking about thinking and feeling) is expensive, and while it may confer some small epistemic benefit toward constructing and maintaining a theory of mind, the main benefit is in masking the downsides of other traits (like neuroticism, depression, anxiety, paranoia), which, to be frank, don't usually have much in the way of an upside. Historically (and likely prehistorically) it is simpler on a population basis to select against the traits that introspection would mask, which leaves introspectiveness as a trait that isn't strongly selected for, and at least slightly selected against in most situations.

This calculation flips in any situation where neuroticism, paranoia, etc. confer an advantage, which probably happens often enough to keep those traits (and introspectiveness) from dying out, and of course much of the stress of modern living exacerbates any neurotic etc. tendencies, which may give introspectiveness a boost even as those tendencies are selected against more strongly. But on an evolutionary timescale, I'd place a bigger bet on human culture(s) becoming less stressful, rather than on people evolving to better withstand stress.

Much of this speculation, TBH, is a handwavy just-so story. And since a theory isn't much use unless it has predictive power, here is a prediction: low-trust societies are where you would expect to find some minor advantage to neuroticism associated traits and a corresponding greater advantage to an even marginally better theory of mind, so we might find a correlation to greater introspectiveness. I am not aware of any research that addresses that question (although on an individual basis, neuroticism is by definition negatively correlated with trust, since trust is a facet of agreeableness)

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#192

Full disclosure, I have severe clinical depression. Multiple comments here have asked for double blind placebo trials. But you can't really do that with something psycho active, at least not ethically. I can appreciate wanting high standards, but that doesn't mean banning everything that doesn't fit the neat mold we use in other cases. Also, suicide is the leading cause of death for multiple age/sex demographic group…

I don't see how it's unethical if you don't know if the drug even works or not. Sure if you were trying to figure out which of two wildly successful depression meds is more successful vs a placebo for a group of suicidal teenagers clearly there's some ethical violations, but if you don't even know if a medication is useful or not how is it unethical to do a double blind study?

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the correct setting, psychedelics can critically alter one's view on the world and themselves. This is very powerful, but very unknown. We must tread on light ground when approaching these substances. So, more research must be done under the right trip settings, but not in haste.

I mean, there should be at least some haste here. 50k healthy people a year die from suicide in the US alone. And that's the official number, it supposedly missed a lot of people who "fall" off of bridges and crash cars alone at very high speed into stationary, well lit obstacles while sober and healthy... For comparison, AIDS kills about 13k. About 16k people died from (non suicide) handgun injuries. Even All Cancer…

I agree, regardless of the numbers, there is a problem, but if SSRI's are not the problem, maybe getting people the help they need is the problem. Perhaps instead, many of those people hypothetically are chronic alcoholics, or maybe they are recovering opioid addicts who cannot deal with withdrawal and don't have the help they need ( Actually, psychedelics work wonders when trying to beat addictions ) .

My point is, you can't associate a rising number of suicide cases and believe there's a definite cause and solution.

It is not a black and white problem, and for that matter imho nether is "suicide and depression." Those two things are caused by so many infinite externalities in life, we cannot point to a solution with any sort of confident conviction.

In essence I see that and hear this:

"Oh look, that suicide statistic is caused by "XXX", and "YYY" is the solution.

It's more like...

"Oh look, that suicide statistic is caused by problems "X&$Y#", "DLKJER)(", "DOEKDHT&", "$%&DHTJ" ETC., and there are a ton of solutions for each problem.

TLDR: we should legalize psychedelics for recreational use, not limited to medical purposes

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Multiple comments here have asked for double blind placebo trials. But you can't really do that with something psycho active, at least not ethically. There are no ethical barriers to including a control group. The idea that double-blind, placebo-controlled trials are impossible with psychoactive medication is a strawman argument, because obviously we can still have a control group. The control group doesn't even ne…

The reason you cannot have a double blind study is that you can tell you've been given mushrooms. So, I expect, can the therapist and the researcher etc. The moment anyone knows it's no longer double blind. I'm happy to be corrected if there is some clever way around this. I have heard people suggest you give "control" group members so other psychoactive substance (MDMA was suggested). But that doesn't have the same…

Yeah, it’s a weird thing to test for. Sort of like trying to double-blind broken bone procedures with a hard cast for the experimental group, and an Ace bandage for placebo. All parties can tell the difference while it’s being applied.

Maybe it requires a different kind of experimental structure that still allows for single-blind follow-ups. Imagine the subjects talking a different set of therapists or researchers after 1 month, 3 months, 6 months. The patients/subjects would have to be instructed not to talk about whatever they experienced during the psilocybin/placebo phase, only about their personal development since then: outlook on life, lifestyle changes, etc. The therapists would have to self-invalidate if anything was divulged by a patient. It would probably have to be a large group, since with 1000 people you might only get 300 therapist-blind reports.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#195

Full disclosure, I have severe clinical depression. Multiple comments here have asked for double blind placebo trials. But you can't really do that with something psycho active, at least not ethically. I can appreciate wanting high standards, but that doesn't mean banning everything that doesn't fit the neat mold we use in other cases. Also, suicide is the leading cause of death for multiple age/sex demographic group…

> Multiple comments here have asked for double blind placebo trials. But you can't really do that with something psycho active, at least not ethically. There are no ethical barriers to including a control group. The idea that double-blind, placebo-controlled trials are impossible with psychoactive medication is a strawman argument, because obviously we can still have a control group. The control group doesn't even ne…

They're not taking mushrooms, they're taking raw psilosybin sans any of the other active components in the mushrooms such as the bits that act as MAOIs. That seem to help reduce the chance of having a bad experience while tripping. This is why the therapist needs to be involved. If you start seeing demons or negative other hallucinations and can't calm yourself down it can be a traumatic experience.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#197

As hopeful as I am for unconventional drugs to have more medicinal uses, is it unreasonable for me to think there's no good medicinal depression cure? Is it unfounded to think depression generally has its roots in being disconnected from other people/society? I've felt depressed before, but I've probably never had it as bad as many people. But generally I've felt depressed when my life felt too narrow. When I've felt…

I have had treatment-resistant major depression for eight years. During that time I have had long periods with extensive, frequent social interaction and bonding. My depression encompasses most of the time I've known my now-wife, repairing a broken relationship with my father, the acquisition of one new close friend, and the coming and going of many transient relationships. I don't know what the cure for my own case…

Is this a coincidence, that CBT is also an abbreviation for Cock & Balls Torture?

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#199
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Works for mine. I need to take a heroic dose (5 gr) and then it lasts about 3 months before I need to again.

Isn't that what the parent post said? Works temporarily but doesn't last?

Doesn't last? 3 months is about as good as it gets. Excercise doesn't last either by that logic but it still is a side effect free cure to the problem.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need placebo. That's a common misconception. They could have used an active control group that received traditional antidepressants. This study wasn't actually about psilocybin, it was about psilocybin-assisted therapy. So they could have simply had one group receive only therapy and the other group receive therapy plus psilocybin.

>They could have used an active control group that received traditional antidepressants. Traditional antidepressants take days or weeks to have an effect, and the effect is very different from psilocybin. >So they could have simply had one group receive only therapy and the other group receive therapy plus psilocybin. That still wouldn't tell you if the psilocybin itself had any effect over and above the placebo effe…

> Traditional antidepressants take days or weeks to have an effect, and the effect is very different from psilocybin.

Which is fine. Double-blind is great when you can pull it off, but it's fallacious to dismiss control groups just because they can't be perfectly blinded.

Active control groups and non-blinded studies are still used frequently in these situations. There's no excuse for discarding control groups completely.

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