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JSONx is an IBM standard format to represent JSON as XML

publib.boulder.ibm.com

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Re: JSONx is an IBM standard format to represent JSON as XML

#61

Wow. Just wow. Probably controversial, but in a dozen or so years of programming I think XML probably represents the most stupid and costly ideas to've gained widespread adoption. I honestly can't think of a single other relatively recent technology that's responsible for nearly as many wasted lines of code, unbelievably inefficient systems, and legions of developers who are terrified of bytes that don't render nicel…

Agree completely if you're talking about XML used for storing structured data, as a serialization format, or as a settings format.

Disagree completely if you're talking about XML as an extensible markup language for textual documents, for which it is a perfectly sane choice. Problem is, few people use it that way.

Re: JSONx is an IBM standard format to represent JSON as XML

#63
Not only is XML shoe horned for purposes where it doesn't belong to, but also people who know only XML tend to use it so badly that it brings bad name to technologies associated with it.

I work for a project that has involvement in a lot of technologies like Java, Perl, C and C++. Now the problem is somehow there is assumption that its difficult and costly to hire good C/C++ programmers. So what is the path taken? They tend to replace everything with Java. Now comes the actual issue, its easy to hire programmers who know Java. They come in volumes. Just post a hiring Ad, and thousands will land up at your doorstep next day. The actual issue is how do you separate the good ones from the bad ones?

Once you hire such programmers, you have to deal with technology addiction. Things like eclipse, XML etc the whole project begins to revolve around such things. In my project nearly everything is XML, config files, DB, persistence you name it. If its on a file its XML. This JSON in XML which is surprising most of you folks already exists in a lot enterprise code bases. Project managers seem to have a narrow vision, debates on issues like these terminate with 'It works, so we just don't care'.

I'm not against IDE's. But when your programmers can't do a simple deployment on test boxes, can't figure out even simple commands. All under the excuse of 'I only use eclipse', It begins to show up on the language community. Java in it self is not bad. But by reducing the barrier to entry to such low levels you are opening door for all sorts of toxins to come in.

I see Python is the next Java in making. Masses are flocking to it. As it usually turns out to be, most of them horrible. They just contagiously corrupt the whole community, spread the disease and once they are done destroying it they move onto some thing new.

After all you need to do something for a Job.

Re: JSONx is an IBM standard format to represent JSON as XML

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't agree more. The thing that frustrates me the most is that people jump to defend it because it's what they know. It's like they're plugged into the matrix and they will fight for it until the end. People love to write regexes to process their bastardized XML subset because it's "easy," without realizing that their regex is not even remotely an XML parser and would fall over at the first sight of CDATA.

Totally. On two totally independent occasions I've come into work to have a coworker tell me they implemented an XML Parser the evening before. Um, right. Great. The thing that totally boggles my mind is that I think it really prove-ably fails to deliver on literally every promise/benefit/design-goal that I hear folks claim it embodies.

I know parsing XML with regular expressions is a sin, but when you need to get some data out a 20 GB XML immediately in the next 10 minutes. It turns out that its better to check out the layout of the XML, use combinations of grep, sed, awk , perl with pipes just to serve the need for the moment.

This is better than spending next 5 hours writing a Java program to do it. Its not a permanent solution, but either way that Java program and the shell hack are both going to do the very same.

I would rather use the shell and do it, rather than spend the next 5 hours with Java and eclipse.

Re: JSONx is an IBM standard format to represent JSON as XML

#65

Using the example from http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/wsdatap/v3r8m1/inde... muk:~ fiam$ echo '{ "name":"John Smith"... }'|wc -c 303 muk:~ fiam$ echo ' … ' |wc -c 904 I don't really have anything else to say. Edit: formatting

There is interesting side to this example of yours. Terseness and its power have never been appreciated by the masses. The average programmer needs a tool, that can match his level of competence. This isn't just true in Data formats but also true when it comes to technologies.

Java and Python, are loved by the masses today for that very reason. So as long as eclipse and its Ctrl-Space takes care of 'filling up the blanks' most programmers will use it. Beyond that everything is irrelevant at least for the masses.

Now one fine day a cool Perl/Lisp/C programmer comes around and shows a you how you could do all that with more compact code along with flexibility and power and people suddenly realize what fun they were missing for years.

Verbose stuff tends to get very famous for a while and then just fades away with time, never to be seen again.

Re: JSONx is an IBM standard format to represent JSON as XML

#66
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally. On two totally independent occasions I've come into work to have a coworker tell me they implemented an XML Parser the evening before. Um, right. Great. The thing that totally boggles my mind is that I think it really prove-ably fails to deliver on literally every promise/benefit/design-goal that I hear folks claim it embodies.

I know parsing XML with regular expressions is a sin, but when you need to get some data out a 20 GB XML immediately in the next 10 minutes. It turns out that its better to check out the layout of the XML, use combinations of grep, sed, awk , perl with pipes just to serve the need for the moment. This is better than spending next 5 hours writing a Java program to do it. Its not a permanent solution, but either way th…

The fact that those are your two options is just a testament to how absurdly unsuitable XML is for this purpose.

Your "combinations of grep, sed, awk, perl" will corrupt your data if your file happens to contain any CDATA, entities, unexpected formatting, processing instructions, etc.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes a quick hack is worth the risk. But it's certainly no reason to defend XML, which is what put you in the position where a quick hack was your best option.

Re: JSONx is an IBM standard format to represent JSON as XML

#67
post #51

The objective of jsonx is: 1) a loss-less representation of json in xml so it can be reused with xml tools. In a sense it's the reverse of jsonml.org. jsonx is not (neither it is meant to be): - a replacement for json - a format that enables you to query json in a xml database - a standard (I would remember if I was part of a standard comity, although I do recall playing bullshit bingo in some of these meetings) I th…

This whole thing about not speaking about something wrong ultimately leads to right stuff being lost. Enterprise vendors like IBM are always in the hunt of giving the industry something that forces volumes of people to use it, and then design tools around it that make people addicted to it.

Just put a auto completion feature in a couple famous IDE's to enable this happen, and see how many people use it without caring what, why and how of it.

Then one fine day there is situation that most of the programmers in the market are trained to use it and if you have to run a project you to hire them and let them to what they want. And then the technology adoption grows.

Its not OK just to remain silent. Proper criticism is needed often, it helps things evolve in the right direction.

Re: JSONx is an IBM standard format to represent JSON as XML

#68
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know parsing XML with regular expressions is a sin, but when you need to get some data out a 20 GB XML immediately in the next 10 minutes. It turns out that its better to check out the layout of the XML, use combinations of grep, sed, awk , perl with pipes just to serve the need for the moment. This is better than spending next 5 hours writing a Java program to do it. Its not a permanent solution, but either way th…

The fact that those are your two options is just a testament to how absurdly unsuitable XML is for this purpose. Your "combinations of grep, sed, awk, perl" will corrupt your data if your file happens to contain any CDATA, entities, unexpected formatting, processing instructions, etc. Don't get me wrong, sometimes a quick hack is worth the risk. But it's certainly no reason to defend XML, which is what put you in the…

I agree with you. Actually I'm not too much in favor of XML either. Somebody high up in the hierarchy attends a few conferences here and there, reads the IBM journal. All along the word 'XML' gets repeated some 1000 times.

So the impression he gets is, XML is going to add value to everything it touches. Most developers like me have no say in that at all, we have to just use it.

I prefer the hack to get it just done. But agree with you, none of that is a permanent solution.

Re: JSONx is an IBM standard format to represent JSON as XML

#69
post #13

IBM. I know you have smart people. Why don't you let them be smart?

IBM has been divesting themselves of good programmers for a while now, probably at least a decade. Their interns are steered away from programming, towards career paths that are perceived as adding value: e.g. consulting. I suppose in theory this makes sense: have the smart locals figure out what is needed, write up some specs and then get the guys in Bangalore to bang (sic) it out for you. In practice, it is an abso…

The thing about Bangalore IBM'ers I'm from Bangalore myself and can say that you are 100% correct. The whole thing is IBM Bangalore is actually composed of IBM services, and most of them service projects. I have many friends working there, and its just another Indian company. Its your usual job hoppers who know nothing but keep moving from one company to another just for hikes.

To more about the state of affairs here, read my comment on another thread - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2480368

Re: JSONx is an IBM standard format to represent JSON as XML

#70
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IBM has been divesting themselves of good programmers for a while now, probably at least a decade. Their interns are steered away from programming, towards career paths that are perceived as adding value: e.g. consulting. I suppose in theory this makes sense: have the smart locals figure out what is needed, write up some specs and then get the guys in Bangalore to bang (sic) it out for you. In practice, it is an abso…

> They can't even maintain the software they wrote 5-10 years ago, they just don't make any effort to retain that knowledge. IBM is the company that keeps a nearly-five-decade-old architecture and ISA around for its business customers, correct? (zSeries (or whatever its name is this week) is derived from s390, is derived from s370, is derived from s360, was created in the early 1960s.) z/OS and z/VM are modern versio…

Big companies divide their company internally into many units. Things like research, services or even on basis of Industry verticals like Banking, Communication and Entertainment.

The units in IBM that work on Mainframes and Supercomputers et al, are totally different than the ones that execute maintenance and service projects. The people, the culture everything is different.

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