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A tech antitrust problem no one is talking about: US broadband providers

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Re: A tech antitrust problem no one is talking about: US broadband providers

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since Bruce Kushnick is one of the originators of this "$200 Billion Broadband Scandal" claim, I'm not sure what simply quoting him does for this discussion. We all agree that there are people making this claim; what seems dubious is that the claim is valid.

You might want to read one of the trilogy of books we wrote on the subject, the first published in 1998, the latest published in 2015, or the collection of research reports we published as New Networks and now the IRREGULATORS, our consortium of lawyers, forensic auditors and other analysts, the last book, http://irregulators.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/BookofBro... and our library of research http://irregulators.…

See Rayiner's link upthread, to a thread several years ago that quotes your analysis directly and, to my mind, pretty convincingly refutes it.

My point on this thread is simply to remind people that we already knew going into the discussion that you believe there was a $200 billion broadband scandal. Since the point of the thread itself is to debate whether that's true, simply restating your premise doesn't move the discussion forward.

What would be neat is if you could click through Rayiner's thread, read it, and then rebut that.

(Here's the link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7709556)

Re: A tech antitrust problem no one is talking about: US broadband providers

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comments like this aren't allowed on HN; see the Guidelines below.

Is it an insinuation when the user themselves has stated, on multiple occasions, that this exactly the case?

Yes, you straight-up aren't allowed to post like this:

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

Even stipulating that your comment had some kind of probative value, the cost to the community of people routinely pulling this shit far outstrips that value; accusations of bad-faith commenting are one of the most corrosive forces on message boards. Demanding users not make those accusations is one of the things HN gets uniquely right.

Re: A tech antitrust problem no one is talking about: US broadband providers

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I am entirely comfortable in saying that the economic consensus is strongly against the Austrian and Chicago perspectives. Both of these schools value prior ideology over empirical data. It's a "debate" on forums like this, but not even remotely so amongst the economists I talk to.

> Both of these schools value prior ideology over empirical data. Austrian overtly so, Chicago less so, but, yes, its another issue that "is economics an empirical science" is also a controversial position in economics. > but not even remotely so amongst the economists I talk to. That's a very different claim than your original one. That last qualifier does quite a bit of work.

Yeah, it does the work of every actual credentialed economist I know has nothing but utter contempt for praxeology. As should be. As should you, if you cared enough.

Re: A tech antitrust problem no one is talking about: US broadband providers

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to read one of the trilogy of books we wrote on the subject, the first published in 1998, the latest published in 2015, or the collection of research reports we published as New Networks and now the IRREGULATORS, our consortium of lawyers, forensic auditors and other analysts, the last book, http://irregulators.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/BookofBro... and our library of research http://irregulators.…

See Rayiner's link upthread, to a thread several years ago that quotes your analysis directly and, to my mind, pretty convincingly refutes it. My point on this thread is simply to remind people that we already knew going into the discussion that you believe there was a $200 billion broadband scandal. Since the point of the thread itself is to debate whether that's true, simply restating your premise doesn't move the…

>The ISP's never got "$200 billion" in the 1990's. That's a total made up number, based on taking what ISP profits would >have been had they been regulated as a utility, and calling everything over that "money given to ISPs." >The premise of deregulation was that it would lead to increased infrastructure spending. And it has: the late 1990's and >the 2000's saw massive investment into cable and wireless. People assumed at the time the money would go into fiber, but >demand exploded in wireless so investment went there instead.

let's start with this-- The reference to ISPs. In the 1990's, the largest group of Internet service providers was not the incumbent phone companies, but entrepreneurs-- by 2001 there were 9335 independent ISPs and they handled the majority of the traffic-- it was only after 2004-2005, when the FCC killed the right of competitors to use the copper wires for line sharing did this definition change-- and what is now AT&T (then SBC) stole the business from the ISP.

Second, I never said anything about ISPs -- as, well, I was a research analyst for the competitors-- the ISP associations, like the Texas ISP association, TISPA, or CISPA, or the Competitor associations like ALTS or Comptel. And we filed to protect the ISPs from the harms caused by those who controlled the wires. We filed at the FCC, we were working with Congressmen Nadler to create the "Broadband Bill of Rights" and created a small ISP summit with the Small Business Administration -- Read our impact study.

https://newnetworks.com/smallbusinessimpactstudy.html

Let me address this quote--its hard to know where to start. In 1991, when the info highway was proposed by the Clinton-Gore ticket, the telephone companies were still state utilities, controlled by holding companies. They were regulated, and the profits were regulated. They received alternative regulations in almost every state from 1992-1995. -- i.e., PA, CA, IA, OH, NY, NJ, KY, TN-- all had primary state-based public utilities and all had state laws changed.

And the investments were supposed to replace the existing copper wire with fiber. And laws were changed to pay for these fiber build outs. And phone rates went up, and profits went up, but virtually nothing was built; and there were others besides us tracking the amount of money collected for these utility networks. They were NOT free market companies but utilities, like water, gas, electric or roads---

So, Pacific bell (CA) claimed it would spend $16 billion and have 5.5 million households done by 2000 All of Verizon NJ. 100% was to be done by 2010-- with fiber capable of 45 mbps in both directions, starting in 1996, All of CT was to be done by SNET, and spend 4.4 billion -- completed by 2007.

And cable? Wireless? They were and separate subsidiaries and it is illegal to subsidize these other lines of business out of the state utility budgets--it is known as 'cross-subsidies'.

Since I was actually a consultant to the companies when all of this was going down... I had a front row seat.

Think of this as a highway plan-- you pay a contractor to build a highway and they charge the state billions, which in turn turns into additional taxes... here, the local rates and other charges were applied to customer bills as prices should have went down when there were staff cuts.

Where did the money go? As documented, they lost over $16 billion as a group overseas, and they wanted to go into the long distance market-- which was separate, but was very profitable

So, according to this, the companies were ISPS and not utilities, wrong. They were allowed to cross-subsidize all lines of business-- wrong, and there were no commitments to build out the fiber as part of these utilities-- wrong.

And might as well finish this:

1) That the internet and mobile booms are unrelated to deregulation and should not be factored into the analysis. Of course, that's ludicrous.

2) providers of the infrastructure underlying those boom industries to depreciate infrastructure and invest in new infrastructure faster than before?

The book is about the wired infrastructure of the state utilities -- a fact that the commentor appears to not understand, and the 'deregulation' that was granted was based on the utilities who control the wired infrastucture to not lie to the public and not charge them for other lines of business that are supposed to be paid for by INVESTORS, not the utility customers.

Ironically, most of the wireless networks were subsidized, which shouldn't have occurred because, well, starting in 2010, the telcos started to divert the funding to wireless -- not legal in most states, to fund wireless, instead of upgrading the cities and rural areas. -- See, utilities are based on serving the territory they cover... So, Verizon and AT&T took billions and moved them to these other lines of business but then left the copper to deteriorate and not upgraded to fiber..

And that is 'ludicrous that the critic doesn't understand telecommunications laws, or even examined the details of the financials for the state utilities -- or the consequences that occurred.

The internet occurred because we, and others, spent years get the Telecom Act passed so that the small ISPs could do what they did.

2) That 1970's-style rate-regulation doesn't have an adverse impact on capital investment.

More crap. the investment under this "1970's" regulation, not referred to as "Title II", and the manipulation of the accounting was used to allow the companies' other lines of business to cross-subsidize and not build out the states with fiber and not even maintain the networks, especially in rural areas.

We wrote an entire report on the current Verizon NY 2019 Annual Report financials and cross-subsidies

http://irregulators.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/REPORTVer...

I'll be glad to answer questions-- but it's not 200 billion... counting the cross-subsidies we uncovered over the last decade, it's over 1.1 trillion; The overcharging from changes in state laws which were based on commitmenets not met since 1993 is eclipsed by the massive cross-subsidy scheme underway playing out, today in the state utilities -- and yes, PA, CO, CA, NY, MA, all have primary state public utilities... like AT&T California or Verizon MA

Re: A tech antitrust problem no one is talking about: US broadband providers

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See Rayiner's link upthread, to a thread several years ago that quotes your analysis directly and, to my mind, pretty convincingly refutes it. My point on this thread is simply to remind people that we already knew going into the discussion that you believe there was a $200 billion broadband scandal. Since the point of the thread itself is to debate whether that's true, simply restating your premise doesn't move the…

>The ISP's never got "$200 billion" in the 1990's. That's a total made up number, based on taking what ISP profits would >have been had they been regulated as a utility, and calling everything over that "money given to ISPs." >The premise of deregulation was that it would lead to increased infrastructure spending. And it has: the late 1990's and >the 2000's saw massive investment into cable and wireless. People assum…

Thank you for this comment. You haven't sold me, but I'm sure you've sold other people reading this thread. I read your two cites as well. I have two small points in response.

First: I ran tech operations (as employee #2) at what became Chicago's most popular independent ISP, in the mid-to-late 1990s, and had a similar "front row seat" to that sector. And I'll say right now that the claim that "deregulation killed the independent ISP" does not at all ring true. Economies of scale is part of it, but so was consolidated billing, coax Internet, "triple play" packages, and wireless. Also, the market just consolidated; even among the indie ISPs, by the end of the 90s, everyone was doing roll-ups.

Further, while I loved my time in independent ISPs, I'm confident that as a consumer, I'm far better served by AT&T than I was by any independent ISP I've used. My service is faster, more reliable, less expensive, and simpler than it was in the '90s in Chicago and San Francisco, or the early 2000s in Ann Arbor. Honestly: even Comcast did a better job than most of the indie ISPs I used.

Second, while the additional detail you've provided here is interesting, you really haven't engaged Rayiner's central argument, which is that however many billions of dollars you're saying telcos were "given" to build fiber, you're just counting dollars in their prices that you think are unreasonable. Which is not what people people on HN typically mean when they cite this "200 billion dollar scandal".

Re: A tech antitrust problem no one is talking about: US broadband providers

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you! this is what I was looking for!

Don't forget to click the little "gear" icon and uncheck "Satelite" from the options; you see 90%+ with two or more 25/3 options because there are two satelite providers that meet this bar.

thanks that's a very important difference

Re: A tech antitrust problem no one is talking about: US broadband providers

#349
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Cambodia, your 4G is subsidized by the low cost of living. The household income per capita in Cambodia is ~$1,400. Also infrastructure in SE Asia doesn't seem to regulated, seeing as there are cables everywhere, which also cuts costs.

You're absolutely right, not sure why you're being downvoted. As I said, I get that the cost is a function of GDP, so the cheapness is kinda expected. Though I'm doubtful that the driving force behind broadband costs is labour, so I'm not sure why the costs are a function of GDP. Even with the ability to string cable everywhere at will. But I still expect that the tech would work better in a developed country. Maybe…

Why is it so hard for people to arrive at the conclusion that companies increase the price of products and services up to where the customers can handle it? The primary motivation for companies is profit. Broadband and mobile data prices are high because customers can afford to pay for them and they do.
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