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So you want to buy a farm?

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Re: So you want to buy a farm?

#121
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s their main revenue stream? The homesteading itself, courses or the Youtube advertising dollars? Selling the dream is always more profitable than living it.

Maybe I misunderstand the term, but why would 'homesteading' necessarily be much if anything it a revenue stream? Doesn't it mean roughly 'doing things that shift the scale towards self-sufficiency'?

Yup, self-replicating, self-renewing systems. Check out the 8 forms of capital. There might be more money being produced by "selling the content/dream" but money isn't the only thing these systems will output.

Eating your own produce means being a producer in the economy. It's not a hobby if it feeds you.

Re: So you want to buy a farm?

#122
>Don’t do it in lieu of a mutual fund investment... Not for the “investment portfolio” your wealth advisor will track.

My dad bought a farm (UK) and it did far better as an investment than the wealth advisor "investment portfolio" in terms of capital appreciation. Also the UK has great tax breaks on farms. Just saying it can be a mistake to disregard that stuff.

Re: So you want to buy a farm?

#123

I'm starting to sell my city apartment this week and we are going to move to the country side to start a small scale farm! I've worked in the farm all my youth and this summer we lived on the place and did some small scale gardening. I don't have any (at least many) false thoughts about how cool and romantic it will be. It will be hard and frustrating at times but waay more fulfilling than the current tech job. We're…

I work full time (now remotely) and live on 32 acres of woods and fields. It used to be farmed but hadn't been for a while when I bought it 12 years ago. My initial idea was to grow produce to sell but it didn't work out.

Here are some of the problems I encountered: 1.) Deer - we are overrun with white tail deer. If I don't surround anything I grow with 6ft welded wire fence, it doesn't last a week. I have set up electric fence wired in many different configurations, but the deer seem to figure it out. Usually just as I think I found something that works. 2.) soil - we don't have quality top soil and amending the soil take time and money 3.) rodents - initially we had great success with raised beds (4ft x 8ft) but after several years they eat the roots (really bad in terms of carrots and potatoes) and pretty bad for aquash and beans. We have cats, but they can't kill the rodents fast enough. 4.) time - working full time and trying to pull everything together is really hard. When a crop is ready it needs picked and doesn't care that you are trying to meet a deadline at work. Especially for crops like peas where it seems you have a three day window to pick them at their peak. 5.) time2 - I have equipment so that I can use diesel fuel instead of muscle power. This allows me to get a lot more done, but there are two type of equipment, broken and about to break. I find it impossible to have the time to fix everthing. My back hoe has a broken hydraulic line for over a year now. 6.) selling produce - nothing in more annoying than the customer at the farmers market that comes at the end of the day and tried to buy whatever you have left at a huge discount. Also, there is a fine line between collusion and competitiveness when it comes to pricing at a farmers market. There seems to always be a guy that buys a stall once because he has too many tomatoes and sells them at a price I would lose money at if I had to match it. 7.) seasonal animals are easier than crops because you have more control. We lost all of the produce this year because of drought, but did well on eggs and free range chicken. I'm thinking about a small number of pigs or lamb next year. We don't keep anything but egg layers over winter.

One thing to mind is that I work damn hard at physical labor. My parents are in good health in their eighties, but I don't see me getting there. The toll on my body is very evident to me. I really hope I don't live that long as it won't be pleasant.

I do love growing things though. we have a beautiful orchard of pears, apples, plums, and cherries. Rasberries and blueberries that I can pick at any time. Probably the highest quality chicken and eggs you can find. Great parties when the sweet corn comes in.

Re: So you want to buy a farm?

#124

I always laugh when someone who has never worked on a farm talks about buying one. Most farming is hard work, much harder than an office job. And most small farms do not make much money, especially if you don't know what you're doing. If you're thinking about it go get a job on one first before you buy anything.

Exactly this. Been there, done that. I always joke that the only people who want to buy a farm are people who've never worked on one. I also joke to people that farming is really just a part-time job. Everyday you get to pick which 12 hours you are going to work!

Re: So you want to buy a farm?

#125
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly it is a lot of work - bu if you're growing food for yourself and spend your days outside, why do you need to make much money?

In the US, you need decent cashflow to pay for healthcare. You probably also need to save for natural disasters or injuries that disable you. And if you have kids to support, even more costs.

You need those cashflows to pay for healthcare anywhere. In Europe you get more subsidies if you can't pay your own, but modern healthcare is expensive and only possible in societies where the average person has a large cashflow. (Yes healthcare is more expensive in the US than similar levels of care in Europe, but it isn't the order of magnitude more that most people think)

Re: So you want to buy a farm?

#126
post #14
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... of successful homesteaders. The survivorship bias of this movement is akin to vanlife. A lot of people burn out. I've seen some get themselves into a poverty trap they can't get out of. Can't pay off the farm, can't make enough to survive, can't make enough to sell up and move back to the city, been out of job market too long to get a job on their old industry and would be stuck unemployed / on povo wages.

Ya, the thing you have to realize about running a small farm is that you are either competing with the huge industrial scale guys or you are competing with all the small town family farms that were born into it. And most of those who were born into it have either bought and built their farm over their entire life or inherited it. It's hard to make a living selling farm products when you have a mortgage payment and yo…

Most large farmers start in livestock because you can afford 10 acres, put cows on it, and then go to the nearby town for a job that supports your life. All the profits from the cows is reinvested into more land until you have enough to get 100 acres of crop land. Then it is farm nights and weekends while working your day job. If all goes well (it doesn't always go well) about the time you are 45 you have enough land that you can retire from the town job to work the farm.

Note that even though the farm is worth millions, what you can income in the above plan is never more than $50,000/year.

Re: So you want to buy a farm?

#127
People vastly underestimate how much work "simple" lifestyles are.

It's the same with van life. It sounds great in practice, but simple things like showering, defecating and preserving food become very difficult.

I suspect that with farming or homesteading, you forego things like financial safety and the ability to take vacations. I value those things a lot.

In my opinion, the best way out is a lifestyle business, or spaced out consulting gigs. Work all winter, play all summer. Alternatively, spend a few hours a week on your project, and the rest of your time doing what interests you.

This is what I do, and it made me realise a few things:

- I really like programming when it's not for someone else. It's what I end up doing the most with my free time.

- The biggest benefit is having so much free time to fill with things you enjoy. This probably isn't the case if you try to live off what you grow.

- I don't spend nearly as much time in the garage as I thought. Woodworking or motorcycle repair are hard, and the initial setbacks are extremely demotivating. You won't hit the ground running, so you better prepare for disappointment.

My initial dream was to work on motorcycles all day, but I can barely find the courage to work on my daily ride, let alone the 40 year old Honda gumption trap that's spread all over the shelves. It's hard to jump from something you're proficient at to something that you completely suck at. I'm just glad that my life doesn't depend on it.

Re: So you want to buy a farm?

#128

I always laugh when someone who has never worked on a farm talks about buying one. Most farming is hard work, much harder than an office job. And most small farms do not make much money, especially if you don't know what you're doing. If you're thinking about it go get a job on one first before you buy anything.

My way was to buy 80 acres and rent out half. The local farmer gets to amortize his equipment over a larger crop; I pay the property tax with the income (when there is any income).

Re: So you want to buy a farm?

#129
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Organic" farming still uses pesticides and herbicides, much worse outdated ones.

Reference for this claim? My understanding is that oeganic farming uses less inputs overall (including pesticides and herbicides ) and some organic farmers use no pesticides or herbicides at all depending on the crop.

Every farm is different. What you call the chemicals is also different, but everything (including water) is a chemical in the end. Organic just chooses to limit modern chemicals that often are much safer. Organic is a one way conversation: conventional farmers do use organic chemicals when they are the best for the job.

If they use less herbicides it is because they are not counting diesel fuel to run their tractor as herbicide. Sure they don't apply roundup, but they spend a lot more money and emit a lot more CO2 pulling steel through the ground to destroy weeds because they are not allowed to use a good herbicide.

Also beware of less inputs in other ways: you can mine the land for nutrients by not putting fertilizer on it as well. Fertilizer isn't only about more crops, it is also about the fact that everything you take off the land includes a certain amount of various nutrients that are forever taken off too. This isn't a problem for pure subsistence farming (subsistence farmers carefully save their poop), but as soon as anything leaves the farm you need to replace what is lost.

Re: So you want to buy a farm?

#130
post #127

People vastly underestimate how much work "simple" lifestyles are. It's the same with van life. It sounds great in practice, but simple things like showering, defecating and preserving food become very difficult. I suspect that with farming or homesteading, you forego things like financial safety and the ability to take vacations. I value those things a lot. In my opinion, the best way out is a lifestyle business, or…

> Woodworking or motorcycle repair are hard, and the initial setbacks are extremely demotivating. You won't hit the ground running, so you better prepare for disappointment.

This mirrors my experience as well - also there is a dollar cost to each try, and no undo button, which puts more pressure on each attempt.

I still enjoy doing hobby woodworking, but it's not quite as zen in the beginning as I imagined.

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