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The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous

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Re: The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous

#71

Post by Balgair »

uranusjr wrote: post #52
Certhas wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to give you a feel of what is actually possible in a well run election: Germany (80 Million people) has a fully manual (all paper ballots, no voting machines or automatic tallying) and fully witnessed official result on election night. This count is then checked and certified as final a few days later (discrepancies are rare and small). People don't have to wait in line to vote. And voting happens on Sunday, whi…

Ditto. Elections in the US are run so inefficiently, it’s not the tech, but the people running them. I doubt tech would make a difference unless they also drastically change the people running those high tech machines.

I mean, there were a fair few news articles out there describing attempts to explicitly make voting harder and to throw out already cast votes.

Re: The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous

#72

Post by happytoexplain »

leftyted wrote: post #40
happytoexplain wrote: post #6

It's childish and destructively hostile to paint a prediction of the outcome of an election giving high odds to the result that turns out wrong as some kind of catastrophic failure or humiliation. It boggles my mind how many apparently otherwise smart people commit this obvious fallacy out loud.

I agree the language is a bit childish but it is quite remarkable how -- for two elections in a row now -- we've seen these models get so much so wrong. Almost everyone was predicting a landslide for Biden and it's dead heat right now. It seems that there's something wrong with the polls themselves, how the models interpret the polls, or both. There's lots of talk about "stealing the election" coming from both sides.…

I agree that in the Trump case the models/polls are missing something, and we should try to figure out what it is, but I just don't think that's a bizarre thing for models/polls, and, more important, I think it's crazy how it's portrayed as some kind of ignorance of the elites in their political bubble, or some moral fault of arrogance.

Re: The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous

#73

Post by ASalazarMX »

tgb wrote: post #70
ASalazarMX wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even third world countries like Mexico are able to give reliable preliminary statistics the same night, and definitive statistics in a couple of days. I'd call it a disgrace that the self-proclaimed bastion of democracy could legally delay results for most of this month. It can be poor organization or regulation, but even if it's done for a good reason, it erodes the credibility of your elections.

There's nothing more degrading to the credibility of the elections than the people running around pretending that suddenly counting votes quickly (rather than accurately) is the important thing.

The thing is, you can have both, there's no sensible reason to delay results, and it might give the appearance of wiggle room. If the count was more efficient, Trump wouldn't have time to try tactics like suing Michigan to stop counting.

Let me repeat that: you can have quick and accurate elections, and your current process gives others the impression that it has margin for under-the-table negotiation.

Re: The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous

#74

Post by tgb »

ASalazarMX wrote: post #73
tgb wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing more degrading to the credibility of the elections than the people running around pretending that suddenly counting votes quickly (rather than accurately) is the important thing.

The thing is, you can have both, there's no sensible reason to delay results, and it might give the appearance of wiggle room. If the count was more efficient, Trump wouldn't have time to try tactics like suing Michigan to stop counting. Let me repeat that: you can have quick and accurate elections, and your current process gives others the impression that it has margin for under-the-table negotiation.

Or we can educate people accurately about the elections so that there is no concern over a normal and above-board process proceeding as expected instead of spreading FUD. That's the real "we can have it both ways."

Re: The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous

#75

Post by ASalazarMX »

tgb wrote: post #74
ASalazarMX wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, you can have both, there's no sensible reason to delay results, and it might give the appearance of wiggle room. If the count was more efficient, Trump wouldn't have time to try tactics like suing Michigan to stop counting. Let me repeat that: you can have quick and accurate elections, and your current process gives others the impression that it has margin for under-the-table negotiation.

Or we can educate people accurately about the elections so that there is no concern over a normal and above-board process proceeding as expected instead of spreading FUD. That's the real "we can have it both ways."

Your solution is to educate every single citizen on the flaws of the process, instead of optimizing the process? That’s like Steve Jobs telling people they were holding their phone wrong.

Re: The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous

#76

Post by dllthomas »

ashtonkem wrote: post #28
tgb wrote: post #12

I just worked the polls in Pennsylvania - the new voting machines are pretty great. You get a paper ballot, you insert it, you use a touchscreen to make choices, the machine prints the ballot with your choices on it, shows it to you behind plexiglass, you check over it for correctness. If it's all good, you hit done and the ballot is pulled in to a hopper. If not, you can redo. You get a machine count instantly at th…

CA had a similar system where it spat out the paper and you had to reinsert it into machine after checking. I thought the machine really provided the best of both worlds; fast and easy controls with user verifiable correctness and audit trails.

That's not as secure (or at least not as obviously secure) as when we mark the paper ourselves. People make mistakes, and people miss errors. This creates room for the software to introduce rare (but, in some races, common enough to matter) errors in a particular direction and rely on them 1) often being missed, and 2) accounted to user error when noticed.

Re: The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous

#77

Post by tgb »

ASalazarMX wrote: post #75
tgb wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or we can educate people accurately about the elections so that there is no concern over a normal and above-board process proceeding as expected instead of spreading FUD. That's the real "we can have it both ways."

Your solution is to educate every single citizen on the flaws of the process, instead of optimizing the process? That’s like Steve Jobs telling people they were holding their phone wrong.

My immediate solution is to stop actively miseducating the populace.

Re: The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous

#78

Post by ASalazarMX »

tgb wrote: post #77
ASalazarMX wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your solution is to educate every single citizen on the flaws of the process, instead of optimizing the process? That’s like Steve Jobs telling people they were holding their phone wrong.

My immediate solution is to stop actively miseducating the populace .

Your immediate solution has been waiting decades for a better, permanent solution. As Trump has sued and contested Nevada, Wisconsin, Georgia, Pennsylvania and Michigan, this election might become even more protracted than usual.

I know right now it's all you have, and it sucks. It has somehow worked because the candidates have been polite, but it was only a matter of time before you got a shameless candidate trying to exploit every possible loophole to stay in power. Telling people your electoral system is flawed and it must be dragged screaming into the 21st century is not miseducation. Your electoral college doesn't reflect the will of your citizens.

Re: The U.S. Inability to Count Votes Is a National Disgrace. and Dangerous

#79

Post by tgb »

ASalazarMX wrote: post #78
tgb wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My immediate solution is to stop actively miseducating the populace .

Your immediate solution has been waiting decades for a better, permanent solution. As Trump has sued and contested Nevada, Wisconsin, Georgia, Pennsylvania and Michigan, this election might become even more protracted than usual. I know right now it's all you have, and it sucks. It has somehow worked because the candidates have been polite, but it was only a matter of time before you got a shameless candidate trying…

Electoral College is completely unrelated. Court battles happen even after votes are counted, so are unrelated too. Results aren't certified until December anyway.
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