New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression • Hacker News Board

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#131

Post by Natsu » Thu, Nov 05, 2020, 1:17 AM UTC

ckosidows wrote: post #31

As hopeful as I am for unconventional drugs to have more medicinal uses, is it unreasonable for me to think there's no good medicinal depression cure? Is it unfounded to think depression generally has its roots in being disconnected from other people/society? I've felt depressed before, but I've probably never had it as bad as many people. But generally I've felt depressed when my life felt too narrow. When I've felt…

> is it unreasonable for me to think there's no good medicinal depression cure

There can be, but only for some people and not others. I've seen esketamine make a night & day difference. Sadly, it has horrible side-effects as well, as in someone nearly died from that and had to discontinue the trial.

There's some hope that a particular metabolite of ketamine that works on AMPA may offer relief without the side-effects, but I haven't seen it actually in a medical trial yet and even if it was, I don't know if our doctor would go for it or not, though it allegedly does avoid the psychosis.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#132

Post by fakeacct112020 » Thu, Nov 05, 2020, 1:17 AM UTC

a4444f wrote: post #116

People using throwaway accounts (maybe they have to) to comment, and then there is this 'depression' ICD, wonder if there is any connection.

HN of course is a wonderful place. But there is a stigma on this everywhere. I would much rather seek the support of real world friends than face the judgement of internet denizens.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#133

Post by goldenkey » Thu, Nov 05, 2020, 1:18 AM UTC

howlgarnish wrote: post #101

goldenkey wrote: post #30

We have to be careful to prescribe these psychotropic substances willy-nilly to the general population. Cannabis has always initially worked well for me, but 1-2 months into using it, it causes schizophrenic/manic episodes. I cannot touch it anymore because of the possible permanent damage it could do.

Psychedelics have been researched since the 1960s, despite formidable legal obstacles. I'm not sure how much more "careful" you want them to be.

Cannabis is pretty heavily lobbied. I've never seen any labels indicating it can cause manic episodes on any packages. I just don't want to see that happen with anything else. We should inform people of potential side effects.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#134

Post by smartscience » Thu, Nov 05, 2020, 1:21 AM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #74

Really sick of these "drugs feel good" stories. If we were still behaviorists, we wouldn't pretend this was news. This is declaring a full remission of depression after four weeks in half of the subjects. This is pretend science, I absolutely guarantee that an all expenses paid weeklong camping trip (or trip to Paris for those afraid of bugs, or trip to Japan for those sick of Paris) would do the same thing. Asking d…

Counterpoint https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comedown_(drugs)

Drugs only 'feel good' for that purpose in the few hours after they are consumed. If people's psychological state is influenced (either way) several weeks after the experience, then something else is at work.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#135

Post by fakeacct112020 » Thu, Nov 05, 2020, 1:22 AM UTC

goldenkey wrote: post #30

We have to be careful to prescribe these psychotropic substances willy-nilly to the general population. Cannabis has always initially worked well for me, but 1-2 months into using it, it causes schizophrenic/manic episodes. I cannot touch it anymore because of the possible permanent damage it could do.

I believe many who have taken psilocybin for medical reasons would agree: they would never take it again. I did not find it not habit forming. (edited to make clear my opinion and not facts)

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#136

Post by jdietrich » Thu, Nov 05, 2020, 1:27 AM UTC

austinjp wrote: post #120

LatteLazy wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason you cannot have a double blind study is that you can tell you've been given mushrooms. So, I expect, can the therapist and the researcher etc. The moment anyone knows it's no longer double blind. I'm happy to be corrected if there is some clever way around this. I have heard people suggest you give "control" group members so other psychoactive substance (MDMA was suggested). But that doesn't have the same…

Indeed. Other trial designs may also be appropriate such as crossover or waiting lists. Depends on the aims of the study. Double blind RCT simply isn't feasible or appropriate in every circumstance.

>waiting lists

I'd be careful with that - waiting lists may have a nocebo effect, exaggerating the benefits of the treatment under test.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/acps.12275

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#137

Post by spindle » Thu, Nov 05, 2020, 1:27 AM UTC

ckosidows wrote: post #31

As hopeful as I am for unconventional drugs to have more medicinal uses, is it unreasonable for me to think there's no good medicinal depression cure? Is it unfounded to think depression generally has its roots in being disconnected from other people/society? I've felt depressed before, but I've probably never had it as bad as many people. But generally I've felt depressed when my life felt too narrow. When I've felt…

Insofar as it's possible to generalise, I believe you're completely right, and what you say is very important. But IMO it's not possible to generalise completely, both because people's psychology varies so much and also because what people mean by "depression" varies so much (and yes, in "people" there I include psychologists and psychiatrists, whose approaches to diagnosis vary enormously in my experience).

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#138

Post by charlieflowers » Thu, Nov 05, 2020, 1:31 AM UTC

fakeacct112020 wrote: post #135

goldenkey wrote: post #30

We have to be careful to prescribe these psychotropic substances willy-nilly to the general population. Cannabis has always initially worked well for me, but 1-2 months into using it, it causes schizophrenic/manic episodes. I cannot touch it anymore because of the possible permanent damage it could do.

I believe many who have taken psilocybin for medical reasons would agree: they would never take it again. I did not find it not habit forming. (edited to make clear my opinion and not facts)

What do you mean? Can you elaborate?

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#139

Post by ridgeguy » Thu, Nov 05, 2020, 1:32 AM UTC

ckosidows wrote: post #31

As hopeful as I am for unconventional drugs to have more medicinal uses, is it unreasonable for me to think there's no good medicinal depression cure? Is it unfounded to think depression generally has its roots in being disconnected from other people/society? I've felt depressed before, but I've probably never had it as bad as many people. But generally I've felt depressed when my life felt too narrow. When I've felt…

Treatment resistant depressive here.

After three decades of trying different therapeutic treatment avenues, including many pharma and non-pharma options, I think that refractory (treatment resistant) depression is a phenomenon rooted in biochemistry. At least for me, disconnect from other people/society doesn’t play a role (plenty of connections, happily married, etc.).

In my case, pharma pretty much works, non-pharma hasn’t. This doesn’t exclude non-pharma therapies’ being effective - for example, they may modulate underlying biochem to good effect in some- but only that such treatments haven’t worked for me.

I’m following the pscilocybin work closely. So far, it’s encouraging. I plan to experiment in 2021.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#140

Post by ytwySXpMbS » Thu, Nov 05, 2020, 1:37 AM UTC

throwaway17824 wrote: post #67

rland wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. The structure of our society actively deprives people from human connection which is essential to happiness. Individuals do suffer from depression at different rates, but it pops up the same way popcorn pops when you turn the heat on. The direct cause is the atomization of modern life, not some chemical imbalance in the brain. The reason people treat depression as an individual problem to be addre…

While lack of human connection can be one cause or contributing factor for depression in individual cases, and may make a lot of people "depressed" in the informal coloquial sense, the notion that major depressive disorder across the spectrum and across society is singularly caused by lack of human interaction (or singularly caused by anything at all) is not a notion evidenced by any literature on depression I'm awar…

I think the quality of the human connection is important. The Dodo Bird Verdict[1] states that the relationship and connection between a therapist and client is the true healing factor. Indeed, a strong causal factor on client outcomes is the attitude of the therapist; whether they are warm, caring and genuine. The therapist-client relationship accounted for 7% of the variability in outcome, whereas adherence to a specific treatment accounted for 1%.

On an individual basis, the specific treatment matters, but statistically the human connection matters more. Your standard “what did you do on the weekend” friendship won’t cut it.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo_bird_verdict