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New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

psychnewsdaily.com

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Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#51

Post by PeterisP »

ckosidows wrote: post #31

As hopeful as I am for unconventional drugs to have more medicinal uses, is it unreasonable for me to think there's no good medicinal depression cure? Is it unfounded to think depression generally has its roots in being disconnected from other people/society? I've felt depressed before, but I've probably never had it as bad as many people. But generally I've felt depressed when my life felt too narrow. When I've felt…

Yes, it does go against prevailing wisdom to think that the only cure to depression is other people; it's generally considered that (at least part of) cases of clinical depression can not be solved solely by psychological or social means as they involve problems with, so to say, literal brain chemistry; social and emotional connections with other people are helpful to manage symptoms and assist recovery but they aren't sufficient to fix the underlying cause. And also for psychological problems which can be helped with non-drug therapy such as CBT and the likes, "other people" are again a helpful, perhaps necessary, but not a sufficient factor, they don't replace actual treatment.

In general, the boundaries of what people call "depression" is very fuzzy and usually far wider than what doctors would call "depression". I can certainly agree that there are a lot of "what-people-call-depression" cases which could in fact be helped by a change of company and habits and literally connecting more with other people. But there are also a lot of people for whom suggesting "connect more with people" is the literal equivalent of telling a person with broken legs to "walk more", as their current ability to connect with people in a functional and rewarding way is simply not working properly right now. Unhappiness is not depression; depression can involve things like feeling subjectively unhappy or even suicidally miserable during experiences that the depressed person agrees are really rewarding and positive, it's just that their happiness/reward system is broken currently.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#52

Post by throwaway17824 »

ckosidows wrote: post #31

As hopeful as I am for unconventional drugs to have more medicinal uses, is it unreasonable for me to think there's no good medicinal depression cure? Is it unfounded to think depression generally has its roots in being disconnected from other people/society? I've felt depressed before, but I've probably never had it as bad as many people. But generally I've felt depressed when my life felt too narrow. When I've felt…

I have had treatment-resistant major depression for eight years. During that time I have had long periods with extensive, frequent social interaction and bonding. My depression encompasses most of the time I've known my now-wife, repairing a broken relationship with my father, the acquisition of one new close friend, and the coming and going of many transient relationships.

I don't know what the cure for my own case of depression is, and I'm sure if I were isolated/disconnected my condition would be worse, but the evidence available to me indicates that simply connecting with people is not what's going to fix me.

My wife and mother-in-law are both counselors, and routinely successfully treat people with depression. They have never indicated that level of social connection is either a dominant cause or reliable treatment for depression.

If you want something to read up on, a very popular treatment methodology for depression is CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy). The premise is that depression is often caused by harmful thought patterns about yourself or your life, and CBT trains you to arrest those thoughts and replace them with thoughts that are constructive or more accurate (less exaggerated, etc.). It's not the treatment I need, but it works for an awful lot of people, and its solution isn't built around social connections (though it may reveal social connections as a problem in individual cases).

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#53

Post by aspaviento »

ckosidows wrote: post #31

As hopeful as I am for unconventional drugs to have more medicinal uses, is it unreasonable for me to think there's no good medicinal depression cure? Is it unfounded to think depression generally has its roots in being disconnected from other people/society? I've felt depressed before, but I've probably never had it as bad as many people. But generally I've felt depressed when my life felt too narrow. When I've felt…

The problem in my opinion is that not everybody counts as the people who can help you get better. Your social needs could be related to an idealised image of yourself that you can't achieve, a desired romantic relationship, a sense of being part of a group around your age, etc. It's entirely possible that you never meet those expectations due to your specific circumstances, which makes any effort to connect with people a failure.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#54

Post by LatteLazy »

Full disclosure, I have severe clinical depression.

Multiple comments here have asked for double blind placebo trials. But you can't really do that with something psycho active, at least not ethically. I can appreciate wanting high standards, but that doesn't mean banning everything that doesn't fit the neat mold we use in other cases.

Also, suicide is the leading cause of death for multiple age/sex demographic groups in most of the western world. Literally number 1 killer. Current anti depressants are about the least effective medicines used in the Western world. So there is a good public health arguement to accept that we're in an emergency and try things without necessarily having 10 years of statistically significant results and followup and debate.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#55

Post by rland »

ckosidows wrote: post #31

As hopeful as I am for unconventional drugs to have more medicinal uses, is it unreasonable for me to think there's no good medicinal depression cure? Is it unfounded to think depression generally has its roots in being disconnected from other people/society? I've felt depressed before, but I've probably never had it as bad as many people. But generally I've felt depressed when my life felt too narrow. When I've felt…

I completely agree. The structure of our society actively deprives people from human connection which is essential to happiness. Individuals do suffer from depression at different rates, but it pops up the same way popcorn pops when you turn the heat on. The direct cause is the atomization of modern life, not some chemical imbalance in the brain.

The reason people treat depression as an individual problem to be addressed by individual means (medication) is that we are totally unwilling to acknowledge the complete emptiness of modern life. And also because modern life teaches us to treat everything as an individual problem. The symptom is itself the mechanism.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#56

Post by im3w1l »

guerrilla wrote: post #45
ckosidows wrote: post #31

As hopeful as I am for unconventional drugs to have more medicinal uses, is it unreasonable for me to think there's no good medicinal depression cure? Is it unfounded to think depression generally has its roots in being disconnected from other people/society? I've felt depressed before, but I've probably never had it as bad as many people. But generally I've felt depressed when my life felt too narrow. When I've felt…

The problem with that theory comes when people who have all of that and more get depressed. I do think you have a point in that the cause can be external but I think to see it as social is far too limited. Then there are cases where it's entirely internal as well, depression being a symptom of various illnesses. I'm not sure if you know this but a lot of theraputic work does focus on solving external problems. You mi…

To me it seems happiness is basically a big AND-expression of fulfilled needs. If someone is lonely they need community, if someone is scared they need safety, if they are malnourished they need food etc.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#57

Post by jolmg »

hristov wrote: post #37
modeless wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of placebo could you use to stand in for a treatment that normally has immediate and obvious side effects like this one?

You can just use the standard sugar pill placebo. But of course make sure the placebo group get the same treatment of lying on a couch and listening to music with their eyes closed. I am sure the psychedelic effects of shrooms would increase the placebo effect greatly, so sugar pill placebo might not correctly show the placebo effect, but it is a start.

> so sugar pill placebo might not correctly show the placebo effect

The lack of good placebo options seems to be why they chose not to have a placebo. The paper mentions:

> Although placebo and active treatment controlled designs are widely used in therapeutic trials, they too have limitations owing to the highly discriminable effects of psilocybin.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#58

Post by smcleod »

marketingPro wrote: post #44
ckosidows wrote: post #31

As hopeful as I am for unconventional drugs to have more medicinal uses, is it unreasonable for me to think there's no good medicinal depression cure? Is it unfounded to think depression generally has its roots in being disconnected from other people/society? I've felt depressed before, but I've probably never had it as bad as many people. But generally I've felt depressed when my life felt too narrow. When I've felt…

Fix the source of the problem. I imagine this drug can uncover the problem and help the person solve it.

> I imagine this drug can uncover the problem and help the person solve it.

Bang on the money there, speaking from experience with exactly this.

Re: New study finds psilocybin greatly and quickly relieves depression

#60

Post by hristov »

jolmg wrote: post #57
hristov wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can just use the standard sugar pill placebo. But of course make sure the placebo group get the same treatment of lying on a couch and listening to music with their eyes closed. I am sure the psychedelic effects of shrooms would increase the placebo effect greatly, so sugar pill placebo might not correctly show the placebo effect, but it is a start.

> so sugar pill placebo might not correctly show the placebo effect The lack of good placebo options seems to be why they chose not to have a placebo. The paper mentions: > Although placebo and active treatment controlled designs are widely used in therapeutic trials, they too have limitations owing to the highly discriminable effects of psilocybin.

That seems a bit of copout though. Yes, sugar pill will not have a as high placebo effect but it is still useful as setting a lower bound on the placebo effect.
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