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Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence

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Re: Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence

#91
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as we are talking hypothetical designs, you can use spent nuclear fuel as reaction mass an ION engine just fine. That said, weight wise it’s fairly trivial so you could just eject it. Project Orion is detonating nuclear weapons which consist of far more than just fuel, they also need high explosives etc, however much of the fuels energy is wasted both from low yield bombs being less efficient but also simply…

> Nuclear powered ION engines however would be ejecting far more of their reaction mass of say xenon per KG of fuel that leftover fuel is basically irrelevant. Wait, if that is true, then the ION engine has a lower ISP than direct explosions, not higher. Unless the reactor is orders of magnitude more efficient than the bombs.

Nuclear ION reactors are orders of magnitude more efficient. I think you’re being confused by not actually modeling what’s going on.

Smaller nuclear detonations are less efficient in that they directly liberate less energy from their fuel. A nuclear explosion in space also radiates most of it’s energy as X-Rays which on earth you heat the atmosphere but in space mostly just do nothing. So their directly turning less nuclear energy into motion. Further, a smaller percentage of that force is then collected by the pusher plate compared to the Bell nozzle at the bottom of a traditional rocket. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_nozzle

Now as nuclear is so much more energy dense than chemical energy on paper they look better. But compare ISP’s and you see just how much energy is lost.

All of that can be simplified by just looking at ION thrusters ISP and vs the ISP of hypothetical Orion rockets. At that point it’s just a question of what percentage of mass is reaction mass vs the reactor + fuel and it turns out you can get reaction mass well over 80% making at least 60% more efficient before considering the pusher plate assembly’s mass vs physical ION engine’s mass.

PS: And that’s when looking at existing ION engine designs. Hypothetically, you could eject matter at a large fraction of C using energy giving orders of magnitude higher ISP, at the cost of lower energy efficiency etc.

Re: Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence

#92
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's great, but hardly amazing. Most academic research is done by underpaid PhD and postdoc students for the love of science, and most of that is far less glamorous than SPACE.

> Most academic research is done by underpaid PhD and postdoc students for the love of science I’d hardly call the graduate papers coming out of academia equivalent to the level of innovation & creativity of what the engineers above described. Perhaps they’re both underpaid, but one is certainly more amazing. Hardly the same.

That's a pretty amazing comment to me. Perhaps I am biased because of all the blood sweat tears and life I spent publishing papers in academia. Generally, with the exception of certain low quality publication venues, certain fringe areas of humanities, and of course review papers, each academic paper is a new contribution to science that has never been made before. Heating and cooling something to unjam it? That's been done since the dawn of modern engineering. A neat story (and I mean it), but hardly an astounding level of innovation and creativity.

Re: Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Mars rovers, including Perserverance, usually communicate directly over a high-speed link with one of several relay satellites orbiting Mars. The smaller antennas of the DSN can communicate with the relay satellites as well. Furthermore, the locations of the stations aren't determined by the hemispheres. Everything DSN is used for is far enough away from Earth that it doesn't matter if the antenna is in the north…

While the rotation of the earth is one of the primary reasons for the spacing, the hemisphere does matter for Voyager. From the article: "As Voyager 2 is heading southwards compared to Earth's orbital plane, only a dish south of the equator can send the probe a sufficiently powerful signal."

True, but that's mostly an issue because the construction of the antennas have a minimum elevation limit.

Re: Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence

#94
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't even spin something 350 times before launching it out of the solar system?

If the actuator broke down the 351st time, would you've commented 'they didn't even spin something 400 times...'? What would be a number you'd be comfortable with instead?

Maybe as many times as needed to do the minimal in-solar-system observations that were planned well in advance?

On the other hand, if they had to budget for a second copy of everything in advance they may have never gotten to launch. Asking for the funding after already having good success behind them is likely a lot easier.

Re: Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence

#95
post #55

After reading the article, I would chosen the headline "Earth is back online after eight months of radio slience". The earth station was down, not Voyager ;-)

I seem to recall from the documentary "The Farthest" that Voyager actually transmits data almost continuously, but that most of it is lost forever because the capable ground stations are only ever tuned to it for brief, scheduled windows.

Re: Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence

#96
post #52
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't even spin something 350 times before launching it out of the solar system?

What you say is just common sense but as you can see from the downvotes, average people do not like smart people. And the exact same thing happened before the launch, I bet. But the exceptional engineer was simply “downvoted”. Things are tested all the time in factories. For how long? Till destruction.

Ah, but of course you are one of The Smart People whereas we plebians (and the NASA scientists who designed and launched the probe) are merely average.

Re: Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most academic research is done by underpaid PhD and postdoc students for the love of science I’d hardly call the graduate papers coming out of academia equivalent to the level of innovation & creativity of what the engineers above described. Perhaps they’re both underpaid, but one is certainly more amazing. Hardly the same.

You should read Rhodes’ “The Making of the Atomic Bomb” if you want to understand what incredible engineering feats academic scientists are capable of — when the people are tightly focused on achieving a single goal. You should also read Rhodes’ book if you want to understand why unguided fundamental scientific research itself is so critical, even when it doesn’t immediately seem useful to you: without the discoverie…

I love that book. It takes a while to read but it's worth it.

Re: Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence

#99
post #81
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We spent more money under Nixon and Ford than we do now. You’re not familiar with how much money as a percentage of GDP we spent in the 1960s? It’s noteworthy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_NASA#Annual_budget We were building the Space Shuttle and exploring the planets. I wish we could spend money on NASA like we did in the 1970’s

I wish that the problem were money alone. In the 60s, they were pushing to get things out and accepted risk levels that today we would consider intolerable. Today we've developed a cost-plus contracting approach plus insane safety and success standards that mean it is almost impossible to actually get anything done. With one notable exception - SpaceX. Just throwing money into Boeing and Lockheed these days would gen…

That’s why I’ve been arguing for over a decade that we should use more robotics and unmanned missions.

I remember someone on HN telling me several years ago that Virgin Galactic would be back quickly.

Re: Voyager 2 is back online after eight months of radio silence

#100
post #3

I was just reading the pale blue dot and he mentions that Voyager 2’s scan platform jammed after its encounter with Saturn. Voyager 2 emerged from behind Saturn (as seen from the Earth) in August 1981. The scan platform had been moving feverishly—pointing here and there among the rings, moons, and the planet itself during the all-too-brief moments of close approach. Suddenly, the platform jammed. A stuck scan platfor…

A former coworker/friend was telling me similar stories of his uncle working on missile guidance analog computers from the 1970s. He referred to it as "proper engineering"
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