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The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off

larrysummers.com

161–170 of 423 posts

Re: The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off

#161
post #144

The lawyers who work at all of these firms who make large-scale international corporate tax avoidance possible should be ashamed of themselves. They are stealing from their fellow citizens. When big fraud scandals occur (Enron, Wirecard) the accountants and auditors are rightfully shamed by their industry. When we find out who paid $0 in corporate income tax the lawyers who made it happen and defended it seem to esca…

> They are stealing from their fellow citizens.

Yeah, but stealing how much?

Almost everyone I know or read about who runs a small business or is self-employed talks with their accountant about how run things in a "tax efficient" way, to pay the minimum tax within the rules while keeping reasonable about it.

It would be foolish not to. You have to keep competitive.

And the rules are, for the most part, based on fair and sensible principles. Things like if you paid for something to use in your trade, it's fair to subtract that from what someone paid you, so the different is your profit on which tax is based.

Scale that up to large international corporations, and it turns out "minimum tax within the rules" is often $0 in a particular country, often because your profit there is also $0.

Just because you can structure a complex business of many parts in such a way that those initially fair and sensible tax principles work out that way.

The tax rules don't specify a larger, correct amount of tax.

So the lawyers, should they be ashamed for advising their clients how to run a large company tax efficiently?

Assuming yes, because that's the premise being replied to here, what should they be advising their clients to do instead? A voluntary tax overpayment? Structure the business another way? Guess? Copy other companies?

Is "shame" really the right way to control what advice lawyers and accountants give to large companies?

It seems to me that "shaming" by itself quickly leads to a lot of uncertainty and unfairness, because nobody can tell what the correct advice or correct tax payments "ought" to be on shame alone.

You'll end up with different companies who do exactly the same thing paying wildly different amounts based, essentially, on what they voluntary decide to do for PR or emotional reasons. That has the potential to be quite unfair.

It would be highly unprofessional for a lawyer or accountant to give advice based on their personal emotional state, and nebulous targets which nobody has agreed on and different people reach very different views on. So the right thing to do for an ethical professional lawyer or accountant is to resist that pressure, and try to give the most unbiased, knowledgable and reliable advice instead, based on the rules as they are set out, which everyone is supposed to adhere to.

That's why I'm inclined more towards ideas like the "General Anti-Avoidance Rule" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_avoidance#General_anti-avo... which gives companies and their advisors a framework for deciding the correct amounts to pay, with a stick if they don't.

Public shaming and campaigning is useful, but the end goal of that is ideally to apply political pressure to improve the rules in a "level playing field" way, so that proper application of them results in proper taxation. Many attempts at closing tax loopholes tend to make the tax code more complex, which requires yet more rules to close yet more new loopholes. Those rules are very "gameable".

But general anti-avoidance rules don't have to have this problem, if they are constructed with suitable generality and defer hair-splitting details to fair justice principles rather than ever-finer rules. Getting this right is still difficult, and still a work in progress. It's very contextual too, as the difference between structuring a business to avoid tax and structuring a business because that's how you conduct business is as much about culture and common practice as anything, and these change over time even while the general rule stays the same. But it seems like a better general approach to me.

Re: The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off

#162
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a case of economies of scale. A fairly wealthy person could save maybe $50,000 per year with the advice of the smartest tax lawyers and accountants in the world. But it would cost them $500,000 per year to pay for the structure to be created/updated. When I worked as a tax lawyer, we created structures and defended cases that saved our clients hundreds of millions of dollars. At this scale, paying for our ser…

>this is why it makes sense that companies can walk a fine line on taxes, save tons of money, and you and I cannot. Nope, these are the reasons that cause the situation. This outcome does /not/ make sense nobody sane without a huge vested interest would design a system to achieve less tax paid when you earn more. It's entirely contrary to the intent and spirit of the tax code. This is not sensible. How to fix it? Tha…

If only there was a website where people who automate things congregate. They could automate creating this legal structure so we could all do it, then governments would be forced to do something about it.

Re: The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off

#163

I read about tax avoidance schemes like corporate inversions or sending all your patents to a company in some tax free haven and licensing your patents from your company for all your profits, and so on, and it makes me really mad. Companies making many billions of dollars paying no taxes. My intuition is that if I personally came up with a cute "gotcha" like this where I wound up paying zero in taxes because of some…

When people do it, it is tax avoidance. At scale it is tax optimization. Call it disruption if you will.

These tax shenanigans would stop if laws were enforced.

Those who could enforce them have no interest to do so.

Re: The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off

#164
post #153

I don’t fully understand why corporations are taxed in the first place. All the money the corporation takes in ultimately gets spent on operating expenses, or is profit that is then distributed to shareholders who then owe taxes on that income. If it’s annoying and counter intuitive that corporations are in some legal senses considered people, it is even more confusing that they pay taxes. This sets up a crazy situat…

They are taxed because they are beneficiaries of society's investment in infrastructure and people. They benefit directly from a healthy, educated population, enforcement of construction codes, the operation of the legal system, roads and waterways, etc. Companies aren't entirely benign, either, so part of those taxes goes to environmental impact assessment and handling they don't pay for, such as pollution, health h…

A corporation is an abstraction that does not exist, so it cannot benefit from those things you listed.

The human shareholders and human staff benefit (and profit) from those things, and there are already mechanisms in place to tax those human beings, either as shareholders or as staff with ordinary income.

Re: The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off

#165

I don’t fully understand why corporations are taxed in the first place. All the money the corporation takes in ultimately gets spent on operating expenses, or is profit that is then distributed to shareholders who then owe taxes on that income. If it’s annoying and counter intuitive that corporations are in some legal senses considered people, it is even more confusing that they pay taxes. This sets up a crazy situat…

I believe an income tax should be the only tax, since it covers any and all economic transactions, and it's the only progressive tax. - There's only a single loophole: People who use their business to pay for personal expenses. They are easy to catch, and the simplicity of the tax scheme allows collectors to focus on this one loophole. - It's simple to collect: Ask all the banks for everyone's statement, and apply a…

Don’t forget inflation: an uncontrolled, regressive back door tax that primarily affects the poor and poor-adjacent that don’t hold securities.

Re: The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off

#166
post #3

I wonder how feasible it is for individuals (or groups of individuals?) in the US, to also incorporate themselves and, through the same or similar loopholes, also pay no tax... How would the IRS respond in those instances. Has that been tried? Is anyone aware of anything like that? Is the cost of such a scheme prohibitive for an individual vs. a large Corp? I'd be curious what the challenges and outcome of such an ex…

As a US citizen it's somewhat tricky as you are taxed on your worldwide income, but the easiest way is probably to become a tax resident in a country with a low tax rate. Even in the UK, as a contractor/freelancer it's fairly simple to pay single digit percent effective taxes on incomes of £100k+. And that's without even delving into what could be considered a 'tax avoidance' scheme.

Re: The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off

#167

I read about tax avoidance schemes like corporate inversions or sending all your patents to a company in some tax free haven and licensing your patents from your company for all your profits, and so on, and it makes me really mad. Companies making many billions of dollars paying no taxes. My intuition is that if I personally came up with a cute "gotcha" like this where I wound up paying zero in taxes because of some…

The laws have always and will always favor those with capital. Its naive to think otherwise. There will always be loopholes, resources to fight it, go lobby a d bribe.

The "corruption" is a feature, not a bug. If you truly want go get rid of the assymetry, then the answer is not more regulations and extractions, but less across the board. Fund the services without relying on taxes to income, not only will it be fair for you and mc.corp, it will also create efficient market incentives and eliminate the vectors for corruption when there is nothing to gain.

Re: The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off

#168
post #164
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are taxed because they are beneficiaries of society's investment in infrastructure and people. They benefit directly from a healthy, educated population, enforcement of construction codes, the operation of the legal system, roads and waterways, etc. Companies aren't entirely benign, either, so part of those taxes goes to environmental impact assessment and handling they don't pay for, such as pollution, health h…

A corporation is an abstraction that does not exist, so it cannot benefit from those things you listed. The human shareholders and human staff benefit (and profit) from those things, and there are already mechanisms in place to tax those human beings, either as shareholders or as staff with ordinary income.

Are humans abstractions that do not exist, because they are made of cells ?

Re: The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could do that by direct subsidies. That would be transparent. Or should transparency be required only of the corporations, but governments could get a pass?

It is more efficient to let people keep money than it is to take it from them and give it back. Even if the laws that allow the former would (/might) be simpler.

It is not a problem. Just give subsidies as a tax credit.

Re: The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off

#170
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How to fix it? Make a tax code as simple as possible. So simple there is no room for interpretation.

Or do like Europe is finally starting: just tax revenue. They can suppress their 'profit' whichever way they want, they can't suppress their revenue in a given country. The digital services tax is imposed at a rate of 3% on the gross revenues derived from digital activities of which French “users” are deemed to play a major role in value creation. The law not only affects digital companies but, more generally, digita…

> Or do like Europe is finally starting: just tax revenue.

That rapidly turns into a disaster of consolidations and monopolies. You don't want that.

Think about the difference between big company $BIG selling you the consumer a million Widgets for 10^9 currency units, versus 26 small companies $a..$z each selling to the next in a long supply chain which results in a million Widgets.

In revenue taxation, big company $BIG pays 10^9∗$TAX_RATE.

Whereas the 26 small companies pay something more like 26∗10^9∗$TAX_RATE because each time a company pays the next company, that's revenue for the next company.

The difference in tax between those two scenarios is so enormous, that it would create enormous pressure for companies $a..$z to consolidate into a single company.

Repeat this across the entire economy, and you have enormous pressure to consolidate everything into as few companies as possible.

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