The wealthy tax the rest of us. Think about it. Tax avoidance, subsidies, bailouts, stimuli, etc. Want to tax the rich? No. They tax you.
That's not taxing us, that's just them (or businesses they, or non-rich people, run) getting some tax relief. They will still be either paying more tax or employing more people or investing in more companies that employ people than I do, that's for sure.
The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off
151–160 of 423 posts
Re: The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem with (too much) simplification is that it removes political steering capability. For example, governments may want to promote having children (by reducing the tax load for people having children), or incentivize small businesses like shops, or domestic R&D spending...
They could do that by direct subsidies. That would be transparent. Or should transparency be required only of the corporations, but governments could get a pass?
Re: The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off
#153I don’t fully understand why corporations are taxed in the first place. All the money the corporation takes in ultimately gets spent on operating expenses, or is profit that is then distributed to shareholders who then owe taxes on that income. If it’s annoying and counter intuitive that corporations are in some legal senses considered people, it is even more confusing that they pay taxes. This sets up a crazy situat…
If you were to make the case the healthy, educated employees could be compensated through their wages, then that still leaves infrastructure, externalities and the legal system.
While you could privatise infrastructure, I think it would be a bad idea. It could lead to shady schemes where a corporation "taxes" its employees on the toll road leading up to the building. Considering historical examples like company stores, I'm not sure we could rule that scenario out. Also, where does infrastructure stop and what does it include? The last miles of telecoms, power, water and other utilities or more?
As to the legal system, it seems self-evident we don't want that privatised. Do you disagree?
On the topic of externalities: I suppose it's feasible to create new taxes specifically for what are now considered externalities, so corporations pay for them: pollution, carbon footprint, burnouts/boreouts, etc. Would you be in favour of those?
Re: The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
> How to fix it? Make a tax code as simple as possible. So simple there is no room for interpretation.
The problem with (too much) simplification is that it removes political steering capability. For example, governments may want to promote having children (by reducing the tax load for people having children), or incentivize small businesses like shops, or domestic R&D spending...
This is not a problem, this is a benefit. If you separate tax collection from tax policy you are still able making economic and social policy via other tools.
Re: The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off
#155I read about tax avoidance schemes like corporate inversions or sending all your patents to a company in some tax free haven and licensing your patents from your company for all your profits, and so on, and it makes me really mad. Companies making many billions of dollars paying no taxes. My intuition is that if I personally came up with a cute "gotcha" like this where I wound up paying zero in taxes because of some…
This used to be a typical loophole but is being closed by the OECD, a lot of tax havens are now taxing royalties differently. 10 years ago after reading up on this, I've decided that it was only fair for me to read up and try the same methods. I didn't see why I should pay high taxes when the richest in my country didn't.
It's not overly difficult to do this completely legally (that's the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion), it's not an issue of the laws being enforced, it's mostly that there are many countries in the world and some have an incentive to compete on tax law. So, you can do a lot while still being completely legal (it's easier though if you are willing to move and live in different countries and if you're not american but still possible otherwise).
In the last 5 years, the OECD has been fighting against this and forced a lot of tax havens to change their laws. From my read of the texts and has someone who has been impacted by this, it doesn't really make avoiding tax impossible just more expensive, meaning it's increasingly difficult and costly for a single person who is middle class like me to do it but still relatively easy for big corporations with an army of accountants to do it. I'm not sure that's really an improvement.
Re: The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
Former international tax lawyer here. This would not be possible because these benefits are largely based on international structures, and any non-US corporation owned by a few US-based individuals would be designated as a Controlled Foreign Corporation (CFC). This would prevent you from reaping the biggest benefits from a taxation perspective. The reason that publicly-traded companies are not CFCs is that a CFC must…
> The reason that publicly-traded companies are not CFCs is that a CFC must have 50% of the vote or value of the company owned by US Shareholders. Aren't there some public companies where some people have over 50% of the votes? Facebook comes to mind as one. Or are their international subsidiaries designated as CFCs?
1: https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/5/30/18644755/facebook-stock...
Re: The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off
#157I don’t fully understand why corporations are taxed in the first place. All the money the corporation takes in ultimately gets spent on operating expenses, or is profit that is then distributed to shareholders who then owe taxes on that income. If it’s annoying and counter intuitive that corporations are in some legal senses considered people, it is even more confusing that they pay taxes. This sets up a crazy situat…
- There's only a single loophole: People who use their business to pay for personal expenses. They are easy to catch, and the simplicity of the tax scheme allows collectors to focus on this one loophole.
- It's simple to collect: Ask all the banks for everyone's statement, and apply a percentage to their calendar year's income. You could even deduct tax when people deposit money.
- It's simple to forecast and calculate: Everyone knows how much tax they owe, and knows how much tax they will owe.
- It's progressive: The more people make the more they pay. Property tax, sales tax, gas tax, etc. all disproportionately affect people with less money.
Re: The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
> How to fix it? Make a tax code as simple as possible. So simple there is no room for interpretation.
The problem with (too much) simplification is that it removes political steering capability. For example, governments may want to promote having children (by reducing the tax load for people having children), or incentivize small businesses like shops, or domestic R&D spending...
Re: The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off
#159The lawyers who work at all of these firms who make large-scale international corporate tax avoidance possible should be ashamed of themselves. They are stealing from their fellow citizens. When big fraud scandals occur (Enron, Wirecard) the accountants and auditors are rightfully shamed by their industry. When we find out who paid $0 in corporate income tax the lawyers who made it happen and defended it seem to esca…
However, if you think that complying with the tax law is stealing (and thus believe that the law is not the basis for what is or is not “stealing”), then it’s also legitimate to call what the tax enforcers do “stealing”, even though it is permitted by law, because it fits the common definition of “taking without consent via threat of force”.
You can’t have it both ways and be consistent. Either the law defines what is “stealing” or it does not.
Re: The public has a right to know how companies that pay no taxes pull it off
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
>this is why it makes sense that companies can walk a fine line on taxes, save tons of money, and you and I cannot. Nope, these are the reasons that cause the situation. This outcome does /not/ make sense nobody sane without a huge vested interest would design a system to achieve less tax paid when you earn more. It's entirely contrary to the intent and spirit of the tax code. This is not sensible. How to fix it? Tha…
> How to fix it? Make a tax code as simple as possible. So simple there is no room for interpretation.
They can suppress their 'profit' whichever way they want, they can't suppress their revenue in a given country.
The digital services tax is imposed at a rate of 3% on the gross revenues derived from digital activities of which French “users” are deemed to play a major role in value creation. The law not only affects digital companies but, more generally, digital business models.
https://home.kpmg/us/en/home/insights/2019/07/tnf-france-dig....