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Help a fledgling professional programmer makes some important career decisions.

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Re: Help a fledgling professional programmer makes some important career decisions.

#21
As a general rule, if working as an employee, try to avoid large corporations. Working there sucks anyways, and they won't hire you (and pay you good money) without a degree. Look for small companies that are looking for sharp individuals. Anything under 5-10 ppl is good, if they are more than 15-20 they're probably already loose the edge.

You could also be bold and be independentish, but that's much riskier, and is hard without some family background.

The best thing to do at this age, if possible is to go to a regular University and get a degree. Even if you go to school, get a job for the experience. The best way to learn programming is to learn from other experienced programmers who review your code, you review their code, ask them what they think of technology-X, etc. You don't get that at school. While at H.S. I took some courses (e.g. UNIX, C) at the local comm. college, and it retrospect they were pretty low-level, so as a rule of thumb don't count on getting anything worthwhile out of there.

Re: Help a fledgling professional programmer makes some important career decisions.

#22

Disown your father.

This is actually not a bad suggestion. If you file for emancipation, you can then file your own FAFSA. Once you do that, if you have no source of income, you'll qualify for all sorts of government grants and loans.

Look into it. Filing for emancipation requires some paperwork but shouldn't be terrible.

Re: Help a fledgling professional programmer makes some important career decisions.

#23
post #20
post #12

I'll be honest, hopefully you'll appreciate it because you need honest advice. I read your post and I can already hear the self-pity string quartet playing and a big screen in the background playing images your hard, hard life. Task #1 is to stop whining, not just to other people, mainly to yourself. What do you mean you could not get any loans? What kind of whiny-ass thing is that? You could not get loans so you dro…

gm is a bit harsh here, but he's on the right track. I have my parents co-signing my loans (thank god) but thats all that they've done for me. Everything else I've done on my own and I'm paying for most of my college as I go and from summer jobs. I know if I needed to I could easilly get my own loans (it's not that hard... you just have to deal with higher rates). Also, a friend of mine is in the same boat as you and…

Some of the point here is that the "college" section on your resume represents not just education, but evidence that you're not a total flake. An employer is going to look at your story and wonder why you couldn't, at the very least, get through a few community college courses or an associates degree. As someone who went to a "top" university and received a ton of financial aid, the money excuse doesn't really hold water.

You can make this work if you try. Since you haven't made it work, one tends to worry that you aren't really trying. Someone who isn't going to work hard isn't likely going to be a good employee.

Re: Help a fledgling professional programmer makes some important career decisions.

#24
post #7

It's a tough situation; I was in a similar circumstance including parents salaries disqualifying me for financial aid (my father passed away a month before I started college, but the lookback period for financial aid is 3 years of income. Unfortunately he made 3/4 of our family's income and after his death we couldn't easily afford college). The reality is this: without a degree, and no experience people have to take…

I am not aiming for $85k, I'm not aiming for any sum of money. I just want to make a living coding. I'd be happy with $30k if it were matched with a decent work environment. I have been considering moving to a better IT market, I just felt weak when it came to getting a programming job, so wasn't certain if I'd be able to get one remotely. Thanks for the tips.

With all due respect, you're exhibiting signs of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Degrees matter, sure. But there's definitely a way you can demonstrate knowledge without having one. Here is a good read:

http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/03/get-that-job-at-goog...

Definitely get some F/OSS projects under your belt. It's a great way to show what you can do, and you can work on them completely on your own schedule. To show that you know compilers, help out with code optimization in Rhino. To show you know networking, help out fixing an IM client's file transfer. To show that you know web programming, rewrite phpMyAdmin as a webapp, or make a web-based learning tool for kids like Karel The Robot (Google that).

At least for me, I don't think it was the degree that helped with jobs, it was the side projects I worked on in the 4 years of (what I realize now were) oceans of free time.

Re: Help a fledgling professional programmer makes some important career decisions.

#25
post #19

There are small companies who've realised that most graduates lack the skills they need and have to be trained in house. Find one of these and I'm sure they'll take you on after you've explained your situation. Best place to look would be local user group meetings. Also keep an eye on those companies that advertise positions on Joel on Software and the like.

++1 for Joel's job board. I just started an awesome job I found there. 10 people, I'm the 4th programmer, great environment, best coworkers yet.

Re: Help a fledgling professional programmer makes some important career decisions.

#26
Get the degree. I've dealt with people who failed to get the degree and found it a problem later in life. It's easier now than when you're 40ish and have a family. And believe me, it will come back to haunt you at some point when you're older and you find that perfect position and they require a degree.

As far as moving out of Columbus, I can't really say that would be necessary, and don't do it without a job lined up. There's a lot of experienced programmers on the street now, and you'll never know if you're going to the wrong market at the wrong time.

Finally, Network, Network, Network. The user group suggestion above was a good one.

Re: Help a fledgling professional programmer makes some important career decisions.

#27
post #12

I'll be honest, hopefully you'll appreciate it because you need honest advice. I read your post and I can already hear the self-pity string quartet playing and a big screen in the background playing images your hard, hard life. Task #1 is to stop whining, not just to other people, mainly to yourself. What do you mean you could not get any loans? What kind of whiny-ass thing is that? You could not get loans so you dro…

Quite right, stop whining. I don't know your location, but in most states, your local community college is cheap. At my alma mater, it's $1775/semester. At the CC my sister recently dropped out of (note: she takes full responsibility for her choice), it's $20/credit + ~$200/semester. When I was a poor grad student living just outside NYC (income Do 2 years of college. Once you turn 24 (+/-, something in that neighborhood), you are independent, your father's income is irrelevant for financial aid. If you have 2 years worth of college done, you can graduate when you turn 26. You are "behind", but not by much. If you want to speed up the process, marry a chick who needs citizenship, marriage also makes you independent.

Re: Help a fledgling professional programmer makes some important career decisions.

#28
If you can somehow get the local co-op job listings @ your uni, you'll find a lot of entry level positions for intern type jobs. Try applying for places w/o transcript requirements, read a bit about algorithms, and you could find yourself with a $2500/month entry level programming job.

Re: Help a fledgling professional programmer makes some important career decisions.

#29
post #14
post #2

Oh, I'm based out of Columbus, OH, but I'm not especially beholden to the city.

hang out at local user's groups. I've thought of driving down to the Ruby/rails UG, sounds like a really good crew http://groups.google.com/group/columbusrb?lnk= (i bet cincinatti has stuff like this too. Cleveland's pretty, uh, quiet). I'm guessing that there's one job category that there will never be enough people for, anywhere: javascript programmers who thoroughly understand DOM scripting, making things work sec…

javascript programmers who thoroughly understand DOM scripting, making things work securely in IE 6-8, safari and firefox

Now we are getting somewhere.

Look deep into your soul and ask yourself: "Is there an actual reason why I haven't become a web programmer yet?"

I'm going to catch hell for saying this on news.yc... but stop learning Lisp for a while. Nobody knows about Lisp but grad students and MIT grads, and they're going to hire other grad students and MIT grads, because there's a long line of people with advanced degrees who would love to be paid to hack on Lisp but can't find that job.

Where there's muck, there's brass. Learn some HTML, CSS, Javascript and -- god help us -- PHP, in the form of a good and popular toolkit like Drupal. If you can't stomach the PHP (after learning Ruby or Lisp, PHP can feel like typing in boxing gloves) learn Django, Pylons or Ruby plus Rails -- but, if you want steady work, PHP may be better in the short term. There's an enormous and growing number of PHP-based sites in the world, and nobody can find the coders to keep them all up.

Above all, learn SQL. If you're going to pursue some paper qualification that isn't a college degree, make it database administration. SQL isn't going anywhere for the next decade, companies need those skills, and a surprising number of developers have only the faintest notion of how an RDBMS works.

Web development jobs can be acquired one short-term gig at a time -- it's fairly low-risk for prospective clients to try you out, and the fact that you'll obviously leave for college in a year or two won't bother most of them. These jobs can be done from several time zones away. They can be done for clients that you've never even seen. If you choose your gigs carefully, each one results in a piece of publicly-visible software that can be linked in your portfolio and shown to future clients. Once your portfolio and reputation exist, nobody will care about what degrees you have or don't have.

I'm guessing that most systems programming jobs, and a majority of the Microsoft-stack C#/.NET jobs, involve physically sitting in actual cubicles in offices full of college grads. If you are intent on pursuing such a job, Columbus is probably the wrong place -- it has a relatively low number of jobs in your field and a relatively enormous number of college grads.

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