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I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

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Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#231

Post by [deleted] »

blhack wrote: post #210
rexreed wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that we're smart. That's why I think we can all read things. Points add little value to a good comment, or detract substantially from a bad one. If you don't have time to read, you shouldn't be participating in an active forum like this.

Do you also apply this logic to books in a library? How do you choose which ones to read? Do you read all of them? I think if you don't have time to read all of the books and judge them on their merits, then you shouldn't be participating in an activity like reading books.

[deleted]

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#232

Post by jokermatt999 »

random42 wrote: post #228
tokenadult wrote: post #195

When I first started reading HN I learned a TON very quickly and everyday about completely new stuff, and was able to do so because I could easily sort through the legitimacy of opinions based on their upvotes. And yet the founder of HN said 25 days ago that there is a problem with HN, "the decreasing quality of comment threads on HN." http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2403696 He summed up the problem by saying "Th…

How about this solution to improve the readability of HN threads, without degrading the quality of comments/discussion? 1. Show comment-ranges. (1-, 0, 1, 2-10, 10-50 etc.), instead of absolute values. This indicates the quality of a comment, without promoting/prompting voting, based on existing votes (that much.) 2. Do not show username (use a placeholder for profile link). This will solve the problem of "instinctiv…

Usernames can be very valuable though. If it's a story about Delicious, I'd like to see joshu's comments. If it's about Google search, I'll be looking for Matt Cuts.

I do like the first idea though. It would be a loose indicator of quality without giving too much away.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#233

Post by random42 »

jokermatt999 wrote: post #232
random42 wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about this solution to improve the readability of HN threads, without degrading the quality of comments/discussion? 1. Show comment-ranges. (1-, 0, 1, 2-10, 10-50 etc.), instead of absolute values. This indicates the quality of a comment, without promoting/prompting voting, based on existing votes (that much.) 2. Do not show username (use a placeholder for profile link). This will solve the problem of "instinctiv…

Usernames can be very valuable though. If it's a story about Delicious, I'd like to see joshu's comments. If it's about Google search, I'll be looking for Matt Cuts. I do like the first idea though. It would be a loose indicator of quality without giving too much away.

Well, It is true, but they are exceptions, not the rule.

Potential solutions

1. If the author feels like he is the authority and/or is the important part of the comment, he can always declare it in the comment itself. (The profile-link can always be verified by the users, to ensure that any such claim is correct.)

2. or you can click the links of the comments.

3. or even there might a functionality implemented to show all the usernames on the thread (by default, the author names would not be shown). Later PG can see, if default off makes sense, based on the data captured and user trends (eg. if 99% people are always want to see the commenter name) .

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#234

Post by [deleted] »

wdewind wrote: post #112
ericd wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has far less value than you might think. When this community was 100% startuppers, that worked better, but now there are so many people who don't have first hand experience that are willing to upvote anything that sounds correct that it's lost a lot of its value. It's now a dangerous positive feedback loop. High vote counts tend to be very convincing to all but the most discriminating people, it's not the mark of…

What you've just told me is the community is broken, not the system.

[deleted]

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#235

Post by phaylon »

blhack wrote: post #210
rexreed wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that we're smart. That's why I think we can all read things. Points add little value to a good comment, or detract substantially from a bad one. If you don't have time to read, you shouldn't be participating in an active forum like this.

Do you also apply this logic to books in a library? How do you choose which ones to read? Do you read all of them? I think if you don't have time to read all of the books and judge them on their merits, then you shouldn't be participating in an activity like reading books.

If I'm interested in a book, I tend to read user reviews. A "351 people said this book is great" note won't help me much. I do the same thing for electronics. And most other things too, when the number of choices isn't very limited already, come to think of it.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#236

Post by jokermatt999 »

joe_the_user wrote: post #75
lukifer wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Idea: a [view count] link. Once clicked, votes are ignored for that comment. You can vote, or get the social proof, but not both.

Would having a socket puppet just to peek at votes be grounds for banning?

Seeing vote counts could also be a karma linked feature, I suppose. That makes it enough work to the point where it's probably not worth it to game the system.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#237

Post by fluidcruft »

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #196
fluidcruft wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

School conditions us to care about numbers assigned to our work so it's an easy trap to believe numbers on comments represent correctness or truth. When things are graded incorrectly it's only natural to want to object. I feel the number more as readings of my ability to communicate effectively in the medium with the audience. I wouldn't take low scores personally as a reflection of your skill or domain mastery.

This is the third post on HN that has had massive numbers of people saying that they use the karma for posts to judge for correctness and to add relevancy to the posts. I have stopped reading many comment threads because comment volume is simply too high and I have no filter. It's not so much that I need the ego as I get aggravated that false information is spread to anyone.

It's been suggested before, but the actual problem here is that the functions of the up/down arrows are overloaded and used differently on other sites. Some people use them for correctness, some people use them for entertainment. Personally, I think admitting defeat on the UI is the best option here. The arrows should become essentially placebos. Separate the mechanisms for rewarding insightful comments. Perhaps something more like the "thanks" mechanism in some forums where there is a scarcity to the votes--each user is allowed only 5 thanks/day whether they use them or not. The limit could be seniority based. But if I was running the site, I would leave the arrows and just give up on re-educating the masses to use the arrows differently and move on. It's a battle that cannot be won.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#239

Post by Sakes »

wdewind wrote: post #153
Sakes wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, what he is saying is that the system that worked for a small community of like minded individuals does not work for a large diverse community. The upvote system used to work because it consisted of a lot of similar people saying, this is a good point, or I like this. Today's community is much more diverse, which is inevitable when you have a quality service/product/community/yadda yadda. >> In total, Hacker News…

I don't really disagree with your premises, but please explain how removing upvotes fixed the problem.

I could see it going a couple of different ways.

1) It actually has improved comment rankings.

2) or I am just experiencing a placebo affect.

- 1: If it actually fixed the problem, this would mean that quality comments will appear higher on the page, not cluttered by mediocre comments that enjoy the group bump. I pull this assumption based upon the way I use the upvote system. So of course, I could be wrong.

- 2: Maybe the site just feels better to me, because I don't have to see comments get high upvotes that I believe are poorly thought out, or based highly on emotion/fanboyism/or other non logical motivations.

I could see it going either way, but my money is on the first possibility.

All I know for sure is that I now rarely find myself thinking.."Whaat? People think that was a good comment? People thought that added value? People think this guy knows what he's talking about?"

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