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The cheap pen that changed writing forever

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Re: The cheap pen that changed writing forever

#141

Post by msh »

enriquto wrote: post #20
ta8645 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't most of us live in a bubble of ballpoint users? It is the most pervasive pen by a pretty wide margin.

I don't think so. I have lived, studied, and taught in three different European countries and everywhere, a sizeable proportion of students used fountain pens (a large majority in the case of France). For my part, I use mostly rollers and fountain pens, and I hate the high pressure needed to use ballpoints. EDIT: In any case, even if most people use only ballpoint pens, it seems very hard to live without ever crossin…

I am born in 1981 in denmark, I have never ever seen a fountain pen in use in my schooling or anywhere else in real life (maybe on TV or something). Its always been pencils or ballpoint (or more modern versions of that.)

Re: The cheap pen that changed writing forever

#142

Post by Sharlin »

Brajeshwar wrote: post #93
kaonwarb wrote: post #2

One side effect not discussed here: how the shift to ballpoint pens increased hand strain [0]. Writing with a fountain pen is relatively effortless - not to deny it has several other drawbacks. I imagine this is part of why, as an elementary school student in France, I was required to write with only fountain pens. [0] https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/08/ballp...

School days in the 80s/90s had us writing a lot, with fountain pens. I still own few fountain pens now and I love writing with them at home. My current favorite is Muji's Aluminum Fountain Pen[1] -- a not-so costly but fantastic fountain pen. I can get used to any of fountain pens pretty quickly, even the worst and the cheapest ones. The advantage of growing up using hand-me downs during school, is that you learn tri…

Huh. I never even realized that in other countries schools might have pupils write with ink pens. Here it’s 100% pencils and has been at least since the early 90s when I started school.

Re: The cheap pen that changed writing forever

#143

Post by kadang »

OJFord wrote: post #138
ascar wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, using a fountain pen is incredibly frustrating and exhausting for left-handed people (in a left to right writing system). I had to unnaturally bend my hand above the line I wanted to write so I don't immediately smear the ink. Basically mimiking a right-hand draw position with the left hand while having your hand above the line instead of on the same level. It hurts. We were also forced to use it i…

I remember a left-handed teaching assistant with extremely consistent/neat handwriting; she solved this problem by rotating the page 90deg counter-clockwise, writing 'bottom-to-top' rather than left-to-right, and 'down' the page to the right. I've never seen anyone else do that, but it certainly worked. Though I remember wondering why not rotate it the other way, so 'down' becomes left and hand wouldn't pass over the…

I solved the problem the same way, but I'd never heard of anyone else who came up with this solution, either, until today.

Re: The cheap pen that changed writing forever

#144

Post by ascar »

OJFord wrote: post #138
ascar wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, using a fountain pen is incredibly frustrating and exhausting for left-handed people (in a left to right writing system). I had to unnaturally bend my hand above the line I wanted to write so I don't immediately smear the ink. Basically mimiking a right-hand draw position with the left hand while having your hand above the line instead of on the same level. It hurts. We were also forced to use it i…

I remember a left-handed teaching assistant with extremely consistent/neat handwriting; she solved this problem by rotating the page 90deg counter-clockwise, writing 'bottom-to-top' rather than left-to-right, and 'down' the page to the right. I've never seen anyone else do that, but it certainly worked. Though I remember wondering why not rotate it the other way, so 'down' becomes left and hand wouldn't pass over the…

I have actually read that turning it 90° clockwise and pushing towards your body is a known method of left handed writers, though it was (unfortunately) never taught to me. It makes sense as it eliminates all the smearing problems. Your left hand moves away from the written letters and lines exactly as you write them. Like it happens naturally for a right handed person writing "normally".

However, I guess the problem is that it basically means you have to learn writing the letters in a completely different way and most 6 year olds will not be able to come up with that themselves.

Edit:

> Left-to-right alphabets can be written smudge-free and in proper "forward slant" with the left hand if the paper is turned 1⁄4 turn clockwise (90 degrees to the right), and the left hand is drawn toward the body on forward strokes, and left to right on upward strokes (as expressed in directionality of the text). It is also possible to do calligraphy in this posture with the left hand, but using right-handed pen nibs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias_against_left-handed_peo...

Re: The cheap pen that changed writing forever

#145

Post by ascar »

orthoxerox wrote: post #134
ascar wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, using a fountain pen is incredibly frustrating and exhausting for left-handed people (in a left to right writing system). I had to unnaturally bend my hand above the line I wanted to write so I don't immediately smear the ink. Basically mimiking a right-hand draw position with the left hand while having your hand above the line instead of on the same level. It hurts. We were also forced to use it i…

I wonder how Arabs managed writing with a fountain pen.

Right-handed Arabic writers have very much the same problems as left-handed latin writers. That Arabic is written left to right seems to come from chisel based writing.

> Although it is hard to pinpoint why Arabic is sinistroverse, it has been theorized that before the papermaking process emerged in China, the Arabs used chisels to engrave the ideas and concepts they wished to manifest on stones. Due to its longevity, stone was preferred over leaves, skin, bones and shells. Considering most of the “writers” [and individuals in general] were right-handed, they would use their right hand to hold [and carve with] the chisel and the left hand to hold a hammer. Such direction is more natural because it involves an outward motion and is, therefore, easier to perform from a motor point of view. A left-to-right motion would have been counterintuitive, especially with the risk of personal injury involved.[1]

However, as another comment mentioned there are techniques that solve the smearing and awkward hand-position by rotating the paper. I would not be surprised if those are taught more widely for Arabic as 90% instead of 10% of writers face that problem.

[1] https://www.pangeanic.com/knowledge_center/arabic-right-to-l...

Re: The cheap pen that changed writing forever

#146

Post by golergka »

ascar wrote: post #60
kaonwarb wrote: post #2

One side effect not discussed here: how the shift to ballpoint pens increased hand strain [0]. Writing with a fountain pen is relatively effortless - not to deny it has several other drawbacks. I imagine this is part of why, as an elementary school student in France, I was required to write with only fountain pens. [0] https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/08/ballp...

On the other hand, using a fountain pen is incredibly frustrating and exhausting for left-handed people (in a left to right writing system). I had to unnaturally bend my hand above the line I wanted to write so I don't immediately smear the ink. Basically mimiking a right-hand draw position with the left hand while having your hand above the line instead of on the same level. It hurts. We were also forced to use it i…

Now I finally realise why left-handed people were so often forcibly re-taught to be right-handed in school in 20th century. It always seemed so pointlessly cruel! But with only fountain pens available, it must have been the only choice.

Edit: this also makes me wonder how the hell Ben Yehuda revived Hebrew without ballpoint pens.

Re: The cheap pen that changed writing forever

#147

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

ascar wrote: post #145
orthoxerox wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how Arabs managed writing with a fountain pen.

Right-handed Arabic writers have very much the same problems as left-handed latin writers. That Arabic is written left to right seems to come from chisel based writing. > Although it is hard to pinpoint why Arabic is sinistroverse, it has been theorized that before the papermaking process emerged in China, the Arabs used chisels to engrave the ideas and concepts they wished to manifest on stones. Due to its longevity…

I'm right-handed and I would certainly hold the hammer in the right hand.

Re: The cheap pen that changed writing forever

#148

Post by vagrantJin »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #147
ascar wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right-handed Arabic writers have very much the same problems as left-handed latin writers. That Arabic is written left to right seems to come from chisel based writing. > Although it is hard to pinpoint why Arabic is sinistroverse, it has been theorized that before the papermaking process emerged in China, the Arabs used chisels to engrave the ideas and concepts they wished to manifest on stones. Due to its longevity…

I'm right-handed and I would certainly hold the hammer in the right hand.

I was also a bit confused by this. For fine motor control, right handers will use the right hand, not the left. The hypothesis is garbage.

Re: The cheap pen that changed writing forever

#149

Post by Broken_Hippo »

criddell wrote: post #15
kaonwarb wrote: post #2

One side effect not discussed here: how the shift to ballpoint pens increased hand strain [0]. Writing with a fountain pen is relatively effortless - not to deny it has several other drawbacks. I imagine this is part of why, as an elementary school student in France, I was required to write with only fountain pens. [0] https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/08/ballp...

What's the difference between the kind of strain you get from pressing harder with a ball point pen and the kind of strain you get from lifting weights in a gym? I guess what I'm really asking is if your body will adapt to the increased hand strain? Is it a short-term problem?

Lifting weights generally has variety in motion and muscle group. Writing is doing the same, short lift - without using the full range of motion - for the same muscle group day after day after day.

It isn't a short-term issue: Comic artists often work long days (contract work) and work until their arm doesn't function well anymore (often decades before retirement age). Writing (and drawing) can produce a number of repetitive strain injuries (hand, wrist, elbow and shoulder). You can increase your tolerance if you are healthy, but it still is going to lead to injuries over time and you are better off taking more breaks than you think you need and learning not to press as hard as people are prone to do. You do "improve", but the improvement isn't really in strength but fine motor control and motion and things like that (especially with drawing).

Re: The cheap pen that changed writing forever

#150

Post by Broken_Hippo »

oh_sigh wrote: post #92
ajarmst wrote: post #86

A notable side effect not mentioned is that the biro began the downfall of cursive handwriting, as described by an interesting Atlantic article: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/08/ballp... I still use fountain pens, although that is arguably an affectation--they were already on the way out when I was in school. Cursive reduces the number of times you lift the stylus from the paper, greatly reducin…

They can probably touch type on their cell phone, just not on a full QWERTY keyboard.

The problem with this is twofold: 1. There isn't much to touch on a screen except the screen. On a keyboard, some keys are different sizes and we often have a key that allows us to know proper finger placement (mine is j and f: I've used keyboards with a dot on d and k too).

2. Cell phone layout isn't as standardized as a qwerty keyboard. Sure, the letters are in the same spot, but symbols aren't always there.

We have other methods to quicken touch screen typing, though: Swipe-friendly keyboards and predictive text.

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