Live data from Hacker News

Faster Growth, Fairer Growth: Policies for a High Road, High Performance Economy

niskanencenter.org

21–30 of 102 posts

Re: Faster Growth, Fairer Growth: Policies for a High Road, High Performance Economy

#21

> At the same time that the major factors expanding the economic pie were losing momentum, other powerful forces emerged that would push toward dividing the pie more unequally The framing of the issue influences what conclusions one draws. Here, the authors think of the economy as a "pie" created by "factors" that gets "divided up". What naturally follows is that if some get a bigger "slice" than others, it is inhere…

I am not sure if the story of "creating" wealth is correct. When I look at people like Bezos or Gates I am not sure they created as much as they were able to gain a larger share of a market. I think without them we would have been fine and other players would have been in the market. So I think to some degree they took wealth from others.

I also don't believe that the top 1% (or pick another number) are creating more wealth than they did 50 years ago which then would justify them taking ever larger shares of the economy for themselves. I think to a large degree modern mature economies are pretty fixed with very even overall growth so it comes down to distributing the gains in a fair way.

Re: Faster Growth, Fairer Growth: Policies for a High Road, High Performance Economy

#22
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider rock musicians. Suppose there were two concerts, one playing a Beatles song with the Beatles performing it (yes I know two of them are gone). Another venue is playing the same songs, just as well, but by a cover band. Which concert is going to make boatloads of money, and which will barely be able to pay the electric bill? Copyright has nothing to do with it.

You'd be surprised how lucrative tribute bands can be. Some draw better than surviving members of the group they're covering.

Probably because they play better.

Re: Faster Growth, Fairer Growth: Policies for a High Road, High Performance Economy

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is lazy libertarianism at its worst. > But a free market economy is not a pie. Of course it is. Wealth is exclusionary control over finite resources, and coercive control over others (particularly their labor). My ownership of my car literally means the right to exclude others from the usage of it. > Bob creating more wealth than Fred does not mean that Bob took it from Fred. Yes it does. Property law violently…

Do you think there is difference in peoples ability to compound wealth?

Of course.

Re: Faster Growth, Fairer Growth: Policies for a High Road, High Performance Economy

#24

> At the same time that the major factors expanding the economic pie were losing momentum, other powerful forces emerged that would push toward dividing the pie more unequally The framing of the issue influences what conclusions one draws. Here, the authors think of the economy as a "pie" created by "factors" that gets "divided up". What naturally follows is that if some get a bigger "slice" than others, it is inhere…

Bob starts with 11 units of utility. Fred starts with 2. It costs 1 unit of utility to exist. Each of Bob and Fred invest their remaining utility in the utility market, which grows at 10% per year regardless of what either of them do. 25 years later, Bob has 109 units of utility, and Fred has roughly 12 units of utility. At the beginning of this thought experiment, Bob had 5.5x the utility units of Fred. At the end,…

But this thought experiment has no connection to what causes most people to make more money than others. That's that they get jobs that pay different amounts of money. There is no guaranteed 10% per year investment.

The most significant structural factor that creates wealth inequality is personal conduct and talent, and the second is that some people have crappy parents. Third is location.

None of it is society [1], unless you consider refraining from forcibly conscripting everybody into communist slavery to be a structural factor.

[1] Except for all the laws I dislike.

Re: Faster Growth, Fairer Growth: Policies for a High Road, High Performance Economy

#25

> At the same time that the major factors expanding the economic pie were losing momentum, other powerful forces emerged that would push toward dividing the pie more unequally The framing of the issue influences what conclusions one draws. Here, the authors think of the economy as a "pie" created by "factors" that gets "divided up". What naturally follows is that if some get a bigger "slice" than others, it is inhere…

To make this something other than a pedantic correction, you'd need to show how your framing would materially change anything they've written. So what would be different?

> what would be different?

A fair question.

The focus would be on the absolute state of the people at the lower end, rather than their relative state. There wouldn't be an implicit assumption that the (let's call them wealth creators) did something wrong.

Re: Faster Growth, Fairer Growth: Policies for a High Road, High Performance Economy

#26

> At the same time that the major factors expanding the economic pie were losing momentum, other powerful forces emerged that would push toward dividing the pie more unequally The framing of the issue influences what conclusions one draws. Here, the authors think of the economy as a "pie" created by "factors" that gets "divided up". What naturally follows is that if some get a bigger "slice" than others, it is inhere…

Bob starts with 11 units of utility. Fred starts with 2. It costs 1 unit of utility to exist. Each of Bob and Fred invest their remaining utility in the utility market, which grows at 10% per year regardless of what either of them do. 25 years later, Bob has 109 units of utility, and Fred has roughly 12 units of utility. At the beginning of this thought experiment, Bob had 5.5x the utility units of Fred. At the end,…

But finite life expectancies effectively act as a cap on that process. In the very best case, you only have about half a century to compound wealth.

Modern America is not very conducive to preserving intergenerational wealth. Of the top ten richest Americans, only one is not a first-generation billionaire. Rockefeller despite amassing an enormous fortune, equivalent to $400 billion today, does not have any heirs in the top 100 a century later.

There's a number of factors at play here. First, US estate taxes tend to be consistently high around 35%+ and pretty hard to avoid. Second, unlike traditional aristocracies, the scions of American capitalism rarely arrange marriages with other prominent families. Consequently dynastic wealth almost always gets diluted by 50% or more every generation. Third, US GDP growth has historically averaged pretty high around 3% per annum. The relative size of a fortune to the broader economy is constantly shrinking per year.

These factors combine to make the relative size of a dynastic fortune shrink by about 85% per generation. Assuming a generation gap of 30 years, you'd have to achieve consistent real returns of 7% a year. And that's assuming no loss of capital due to consumption, philanthropy, divorce, capital gains tax, dividend taxes or fraud.

Over the past century, equities have only averaged a 6% real rate of return. Unless you have significant financial or business acumen, sustainably beating the stock market on a large portfolio over decades is virtually impossible. On an inter-generational basis that talent is very unlikely to be present in every scion. A dynasty with a penchant for risk-taking is far more likely to blow their fortune by some idiot son along the way.

Re: Faster Growth, Fairer Growth: Policies for a High Road, High Performance Economy

#27

> At the same time that the major factors expanding the economic pie were losing momentum, other powerful forces emerged that would push toward dividing the pie more unequally The framing of the issue influences what conclusions one draws. Here, the authors think of the economy as a "pie" created by "factors" that gets "divided up". What naturally follows is that if some get a bigger "slice" than others, it is inhere…

This is lazy libertarianism at its worst. > But a free market economy is not a pie. Of course it is. Wealth is exclusionary control over finite resources, and coercive control over others (particularly their labor). My ownership of my car literally means the right to exclude others from the usage of it. > Bob creating more wealth than Fred does not mean that Bob took it from Fred. Yes it does. Property law violently…

> ask any open source developer about this

I am a full time open source developer, and wealth is created.

Re: Faster Growth, Fairer Growth: Policies for a High Road, High Performance Economy

#28

For others who were curious and not familiar: > The Niskanen Center is a Washington, D.C.-based think tank that advocates environmentalism, immigration reform, civil liberties, and strengthening social insurance around market-oriented principles.[3][4][5] The center is named after William A. Niskanen, an economic adviser to President Ronald Reagan. The Center states that its "main audience is Washington insiders,"[6]…

I wonder how the think tank people are dealing with the current administration. I’m sure at all levels below the top it functions normally and can ingest policy papers etc., but then the boss applies a random number generator to all outputs.

Re: Faster Growth, Fairer Growth: Policies for a High Road, High Performance Economy

#29
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider rock musicians. Suppose there were two concerts, one playing a Beatles song with the Beatles performing it (yes I know two of them are gone). Another venue is playing the same songs, just as well, but by a cover band. Which concert is going to make boatloads of money, and which will barely be able to pay the electric bill? Copyright has nothing to do with it.

What if there were two albums, entitled "Beatles Greatest Hits" and "Best of the Beatles" and the former is a compilation album and the latter is a solo album by former Beatles drummer, Pete Best. If a fan buys the second without realizing it is not a compilation album, should the Beatles not be able to defend their name being used to sell it? Or profit off of it?

> should the Beatles not be able to defend their name being used to sell it?

Wouldn't trademark law apply there? And not copyright law?

Re: Faster Growth, Fairer Growth: Policies for a High Road, High Performance Economy

#30

> At the same time that the major factors expanding the economic pie were losing momentum, other powerful forces emerged that would push toward dividing the pie more unequally The framing of the issue influences what conclusions one draws. Here, the authors think of the economy as a "pie" created by "factors" that gets "divided up". What naturally follows is that if some get a bigger "slice" than others, it is inhere…

It’s interesting that nobody really talks this way about anything other than wealth, even though there are many things other than wealth that people desire — and it’s just because wealth is easy to confiscate and transfer.

I’d like to be better looking, but don’t demand that George Clooney pay into a special tax fund to give me a makeover. I’d like to have sex with more women, but don’t demand that playboys invite me to a threesome for every three women they sleep with. I’d like to be taller, but don’t demand that Shaq carry me at his eye level for 10 minutes a day.

Post reply on HN