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Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables in co-op with the NSA

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Re: Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables in co-op with the NSA

#141

Post by zo1 »

pessimizer wrote: post #95
godelski wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It honestly worries me that this is the top comment on hacker news. Not because it is wrong (it isn't) but because of all places that website filled with tech workers and experts in the full software stack, full of people that work on and exploit meta data, it still needs to be discussed how important metadata is. If we can't convince people with their ear to the ground, how does one convince the general public. Espe…

The people who visit this website are the people who are paid to create and administer all of this technology. They're not only the last people you would be able to convince of something that would affect their livelihoods, but even the ones who do understand feel like it is part of their duty to deceive the less technically adept about the capabilities and dangers of the technology that they're surrounded with. The…

Care to enlighten us what some of the "dangers" of metadata are?

Re: Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables in co-op with the NSA

#142

Post by zo1 »

e12e wrote: post #57
pfortuny wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have gone to jail for metadata. That is exactly what you are saying. That is its importance. And that is only speaking of something within the Rule of Law (accessing metadata with a warrant)... Outside of the Rule of Law, people have been killed for metadata.

Ed: > Outside of the Rule of Law, people have been killed for metadata. Indeed: https://theintercept.com/2014/02/10/the-nsas-secret-role/ > According to a former drone operator for the military’s Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) who also worked with the NSA, the agency often identifies targets based on controversial metadata analysis and cell-phone tracking technologies. Rather than confirming a target’s ident…

That's actually pretty good policing. They should apply that domestically for non-terrorist violent criminals. +1 they have my vote. (Obviously not on the "drop random bombs on them" part.)

Re: Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables in co-op with the NSA

#143

Post by azernik »

jtchang wrote: post #24

All these comments about metadata not being useful are missing the point. Metadata is incredible valuable and sometimes just as valuable as the decrypted data itself. Knowing what sites a target visits, access patterns, changes in behavior: all this can be fed into ML algorithms to come up with fingerprints. You don't need to be able decrypt the data in transit if you know the endpoints and can somehow compromise the…

Forget ML; just a queryable database where your analysts can plug in a known surveillance target and see who they're talking to has lots of value. (IIUC, that's Palantir's original core product, not anything in the ML space.)

Re: Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables in co-op with the NSA

#144

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

monocasa wrote: post #136
upofadown wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are not trusting the people that are running these things, then Signal is just another siloed messenger where the servers are controlled by a single entity. There are certainly worse but Signal is not special.

Signal has open clients with reproducible builds. We know that they are keeping their promises wrt what information is communicated with the backends. That's a step above the other options in common use, and in fact does make Signal special.

> Signal has open clients with reproducible builds.

Not really. First of all, there is only one Signal client allowed to connect to Signal’s servers. And in the real world, the vast majority of Signal uses are getting their APK for that app from the Google Play store (the Signal team has said that they prefer you to use the Play store as well, instead of direct-downloading an APK from their website which they offer only grudgingly). That means that a state-level actor could possibly carry out a targeted attack to replace the Signal app on a given person's phone with a malicious build.

Also, Signal’s reproducible build system requires a specific version of the Android development kit. It has been pointed out that a state-level actor could be sitting on vulnerabilities in that, and not in the Signal source code itself.

Re: Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables in co-op with the NSA

#145

Post by godelski »

zo1 wrote: post #141
pessimizer wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people who visit this website are the people who are paid to create and administer all of this technology. They're not only the last people you would be able to convince of something that would affect their livelihoods, but even the ones who do understand feel like it is part of their duty to deceive the less technically adept about the capabilities and dangers of the technology that they're surrounded with. The…

Care to enlighten us what some of the "dangers" of metadata are?

As is being talked about elsewhere the social and interest graphs that can be generated are the most important aspects.

I'll give you an analogy that might help. Let's say that a personal investigator is following you. They have a GPS tracker on you. They can see where you go, who you talk to, for how long, what you buy, etc. The only thing is that they don't know what you are talking to people about or exactly what you buy (but they know where you bought it from). Would you feel comfortable with this person following you around?

I'm assuming not, because I don't know anyone that has answered yes. It feels like an invasion of your personal space, right? They can still learn a lot about you and your habits by doing this, right? But all they've gathered is metadata on you. So why do you feel uncomfortable?

Re: Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables in co-op with the NSA

#147

Post by rosywoozlechan »

dancemethis wrote: post #138
rosywoozlechan wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NSA's competence or success rate doesn't invalidate the need for such an organization. Individuals part of the organization that behave badly don't either. Other states have organizations like the NSA and in order for the USA to defend itself from them the USA also needs one. We don't question the need for a military because one lieutenant burns down a Vietnamese village, we demand justice and changes, but we continu…

Well, let me metaphorically show where _your_ NSA should be as a person from a country that is not the USA. To keep it all-ages, let's stick with "far away from existence, and even further from OUR personal data and metadata".

Sure, that's your perspective, I just don't happen to agree with your perspective.

Re: Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables in co-op with the NSA

#148

Post by xkcd-sucks »

zo1 wrote: post #141
pessimizer wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people who visit this website are the people who are paid to create and administer all of this technology. They're not only the last people you would be able to convince of something that would affect their livelihoods, but even the ones who do understand feel like it is part of their duty to deceive the less technically adept about the capabilities and dangers of the technology that they're surrounded with. The…

Care to enlighten us what some of the "dangers" of metadata are?

Your behavior is characteristic of a terrorist/pedophile/drug dealer. An automated computer system/bureaucracy, the workings of which are too complex for a human to intuit or critique, decides on the basis of this "fingerprint" that you should be dealt with. You are bombed by a drone / disparaged in authoritative media / shot by police along with your kids and dogs / have your possessions taken by force / have your life ruined for a few months. Nobody at any step of this process is individually culpable, and nobody can identify with any certainty the actions which initiated this process.

Re: Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables in co-op with the NSA

#149

Post by Havoc »

mrweasel wrote: post #73
Havoc wrote: post #35

The fact that Danish intel has access to me just emphasizes how much of a free for all this is on that level. (nothing against the Danish - but think about what that implies about "trusted" relationships like five eyes)

Welcome to six years ago, where Americans where shocked that the NSA had spied on US citizens but did not give a shit about the spying on regular innocent people in other countries around the world. As a Dane, I hope that the politicians a going to make it crystal clear the the FE is suppose to collect intel to protect the country, but not at any cost. Flat out lying and keeping secrets from the people who are tasked…

>Welcome to six years ago

A non five eyes member having access to xkeyscore was known 5 years ago? Please do share...

Which other non five eyes had xkeyscore access?

Re: Danish military intelligence uses XKEYSCORE to tap cables in co-op with the NSA

#150

Post by [deleted] »

romanoderoma wrote: post #89
openssl wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Data collection and political system are VERY different. All governments collect data on their private citizens, but not all sell their organs for profit or do forced sterilization

As an European, does it really make a difference? Is USA really much better than China?

[deleted]
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