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Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

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Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#231

Post by nautilus12 »

cozuya wrote: post #199
nautilus12 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There's plenty of political views so toxic and harmful they don't deserve civility." The people that you think don't deserve civility in this scenario literally have the exact same viewpoint. This is the disconnect and it goes both ways. Unless its straight up illegal, civility should always apply.

For the most part, advocating for racism, sexism, white supremacy, and Nazism is not illegal. Should we be civil with people who are in favor of them?

Yes. How else do you plan on making them see the error of their ways. I guarantee being uncivil with them will just make them double down on their beliefs.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#232

Post by nautilus12 »

metalliqaz wrote: post #190
koheripbal wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you act like an adult and reject them. Are you afraid that if you hear hate speech, you will learn to hate?

of course not, but a requirement to be civil to uncivil people just allows the brownshirts to take over

Being civil to uncivil people is defines the highest and most honest character of civility.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#234

Post by hintymad »

foepys wrote: post #21

I honestly think that social networks where you connect the whole world were a bad idea. Basing it on ads and thus engagement made it toxic. Political left and right both formed extreme wings that attack moderate opinions for not being extreme enough. The right is often threatening violence while the left is trying to get you fired from your job. We need to get rid of engagement algorithms and actively try to counter…

> The right is often threatening violence while the left is trying to get you fired from your job.

Violence like setting up guillotines in front of Bezos' house in Washington? Violence like when the Trump supporters held parades, shops were looted, people were beaten, buildings were burnt, and police were assaulted? So much so that shops boarded themselves days before the parades? Violence like protesters threatening "burn the system down" or "there is going to be a war" if they lose election?

Or violence like Hollywood actors and actresses openly discussing beheading or assassinating the most evil orange man, or politicians openly discussing how they wanted to snap Republican supporters, and how BLMs and Antifa chanted that they wanted to kill the police?

Of course there are extreme and crazy people in all spectrums, but where are the right except a few marginalized small groups?

Oh wait, I’m wrong. Anyone who disagree with the left is far right, right? So Shapiro should be beaten in Berkeley. Mayor Wheeler’s apartment can be stormed. Anyone carrying our flag can be sucker punched?

Yes, half of the nation is far right right and they threaten violence.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#235

Post by brigandish »

atoav wrote: post #182
brigandish wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Do we have to show tolerance to the intolerant?" is not the newest question in the book Lately it seems to be the most misrepresented part of Popper's "paradox of intolerance", where he defines intolerance as those who resort to violence instead of speech, and the would be censors of this age who bring up the paradox - without seeming to have read it - tell us that the intolerant are those we disagree with. "we" b…

I am quite convinced Popper would have disagreed that the line doesn't needs to be drawn (in some cases) before violence — at least this is what I learned about him when I studied philosophy in Vienna, the city where he grew up in. Popper e.g. also says that the goal of elections is to have a transfer of power without having to have civil wars, guillotines and other violent means. This means to prevent violence we ha…

I'm confused, who is saying that a line doesn't need to be drawn? The line already has been drawn, in law. SCOTUS has made the line clear and present danger[1]. That is, a threat made via speech has to be clear, credible and imminent else it is not considered a threat and hence not speech that may be interfered with legally, but if it is then it can be.

It's distinctly possible you've read more Popper than I have but his words seem very clear here too[2]:

> I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion

He goes on to contrast that with those who give up on speech and respond with violence (and it's all within about a page).

So we have a clear line and there's no need to wait for violence to actually occur before legal remedy can be sought, which would appear to me to fit with Popper's statement and what you studied.

I completely agree with Popper on elections, and free speech fits the same mould, it's primary function is to reduce violence. Without free speech the options for those who wish to change society are only violent. With it there is no excuse for violence.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_and_present_danger

[2] https://archive.org/details/TheOpenSocietyAndItsEnemiesPoppe...

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#236

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

wilde wrote: post #213
koheripbal wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how traffic laws work. It's a campaign bus, not voters at a polling station. Drivers supporting another party are absolutely allowed to drive next to them.

Texas law is quite open to interpretation. Reckless driving is defined as "a person commits an offense if the person drives a vehicle in wilful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property." [1] Driving at that distance is wanton disregard for the safety of the persons in the bus, but that's open to interpretation of the officer at the scene. [1] https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/transportation-code/transp-se…

The suv merging into the truck also is showing wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property too

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#237

Post by nec4b »

cozuya wrote: post #199
nautilus12 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There's plenty of political views so toxic and harmful they don't deserve civility." The people that you think don't deserve civility in this scenario literally have the exact same viewpoint. This is the disconnect and it goes both ways. Unless its straight up illegal, civility should always apply.

For the most part, advocating for racism, sexism, white supremacy, and Nazism is not illegal. Should we be civil with people who are in favor of them?

Being civil has little to do with the person you disagree with, but a lot more who you are and how you were raised up.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#238

Post by aaomidi »

kls wrote: post #185
TravHatesMe wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Political left and right both formed extreme wings that attack moderate opinions for not being extreme enough Very well said. I hate all extremes of politics. I like asking questions and being critical. What I have noticed is that critical thinking is attacked viciously from both sides. Asking questions that go against your side's "hard fact" is greeted with intense hostility and vitriol. I would imagine that this…

Not too long ago, maybe 4 months ago I saw an article posted on HN which was along the lines of moderates are more dangerous than the enemy, because they empower the other side. It was a fairly radical piece obviously slanted towards hard-left economic policies. I found the comments to mostly be in agreement and pretty depressing given that I am fairly moderate, I lean a little to the right on economic and personal r…

This isn't new though. If you read MLKs letter from Birmingham jail you'll see he's also super vocal against moderates.

The issue is moderate really ends up meaning status quo (with basic changes), which if it's not clear a ton of people are suffering under the status quo.

So when you're a moderate you're in a way putting your seal of approval to the status quo, which ends up being pretty harmful for those who want to decrease suffering.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#239

Post by wasdfff »

agumonkey wrote: post #99
cosmodisk wrote: post #83

I'm not surprised people are afraid. I'm in Europe,so naturally most of my connections on LinkedIn are on this side of the pond too, however there are also some Americans.None of them post anything unusual, however the feed occasionally brings up some batshit crazy stuff from related people. You could expect that kind of stuff on Facebook from some 15 years olds,but not from senior people who have been round the corn…

The sociological aspects of this era are .. sadly fascinating. 2020s material comfort, education systems, insane technological 'tooling' .. and yet we're still a good old mob when too much ambient stress rises. What should we do ? have gatherings to just dissolve tension and make people go back to normal lives without trying to find weird remarks or conspiracies about what's going on ?

Mandatory two minutes hate every day

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#240

Post by wayneftw »

foepys wrote: post #21

I honestly think that social networks where you connect the whole world were a bad idea. Basing it on ads and thus engagement made it toxic. Political left and right both formed extreme wings that attack moderate opinions for not being extreme enough. The right is often threatening violence while the left is trying to get you fired from your job. We need to get rid of engagement algorithms and actively try to counter…

I think that instead of trying to counter echo chambers and trying to change everybody's mind with moderate content, we need to strengthen them and stop making people clash.

The problem with social media is that it isn't enough like real life, where I have a choice of whose opinion I have to hear.

Therefore, I propose a system whereby the participants don't see content that's objectionable to them. The highest rated content and comments are the ones that the participant is most likely to agree and be comfortable with. Everything else is hidden until I decide to explore it.

We need user-centric systems, not "truth"-centric systems. Let me form my own bubble just like I do in meat space.

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