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Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

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Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#221

Post by Simulacra »

chromatin wrote: post #78

I would absolutely be denied opportunities for projects, publicity, promotion, and advancement in my field if I were known to have political views that deviated from the norm in my industry, which I will state for the record is hard left. Consequently, I express no personal non-work related opinions not only at work but in fact not even with “friendlies,” as loose lips sink ships. It is a shitty way to live, given ho…

I’m hard right and I face the same issues. It’s unfair, but cancel culture is what it is, and I don’t see any major companies standing up against it.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#222

Post by Simulacra »

Volundr wrote: post #219
EForEndeavour wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would your company have dealt with a "Trump/Pence 2016" laptop sticker? What about a request to get time off to vote? What if someone came to HR and said they felt they were being treated differently by their boss because they posted a news article that mentioned politics and religion in the team's Slack channel, and they think their boss considered that a sneaky attempt to circumvent your strict "no politics / n…

Not the OP but: > How would your company have dealt with a "Trump/Pence 2016" laptop sticker? Presumably this would fall under the no politics rule. Remove it. It's a work laptop anyway. >What about a request to get time off to vote? Non-issue. Leaving to vote is not bringing your politics to work. > What if someone came to HR and said they felt they were being treated differently by their boss because they posted a…

You also have a legal right to take time off to go vote.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#223

Post by koheripbal »

EForEndeavour wrote: post #203
koheripbal wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I applaud your ability to keep politics out of work. We created a hard rule at our company in 2016: No politics / No religion. Most humans are incapable of discussing these topics rationally, and it only serves to increase division at work. One person could not handle the idea of not being politically active at work, and we discovered after she quit that almost everyone was happier no having her toxic commentary omni…

How would your company have dealt with a "Trump/Pence 2016" laptop sticker? What about a request to get time off to vote? What if someone came to HR and said they felt they were being treated differently by their boss because they posted a news article that mentioned politics and religion in the team's Slack channel, and they think their boss considered that a sneaky attempt to circumvent your strict "no politics / n…

I have a feeling that most people offended by a tiny laptop sticker (regardless of which party) are exactly the kinds of employees we wouldn't want to have.

If people are focusing on work, these little things go unnoticed.

What's great about it is that it's engendered a culture of eye-rolling to people who try to interject their religion or politics, and this has become somewhat self-perpetuating.

If someone spammed a political article into a common venue (we don't use slack because it's such a waste of time), then I doubt it would get reported - just ignored.

> Politics are inextricable from most plausible modern workplaces.

I don't see how you could logically make this argument. Our business plan and financial goals have zero to do with the current political landscape.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#224

Post by Balgair »

TravHatesMe wrote: post #107
foepys wrote: post #21

I honestly think that social networks where you connect the whole world were a bad idea. Basing it on ads and thus engagement made it toxic. Political left and right both formed extreme wings that attack moderate opinions for not being extreme enough. The right is often threatening violence while the left is trying to get you fired from your job. We need to get rid of engagement algorithms and actively try to counter…

> Political left and right both formed extreme wings that attack moderate opinions for not being extreme enough Very well said. I hate all extremes of politics. I like asking questions and being critical. What I have noticed is that critical thinking is attacked viciously from both sides. Asking questions that go against your side's "hard fact" is greeted with intense hostility and vitriol. I would imagine that this…

One issue is that the 'extremes' change over time. It used to be that emancipation was a very extreme view, same with universal suffrage.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#225

Post by ColanR »

viraptor wrote: post #10
ColanR wrote: post #2

And this is why it's so important to maintain basic civility to everyone, regardless of political views.

It's a nice ideal, but once the views become too extreme, it's not practical. Not many people will maintain basic civility towards a person telling them they don't deserve basic rights for example.

I remember reading the Song of Roland in high school. It's a fairly famous, old Christian epic poem from the 11th century.

In it, I remember it depicted a Christian knight and an Islamic paladin with diametically and fundamentally opposed views (this was written in the middle of the Crusades) sitting down and sharing a civilized meal together and having a conversation. This is what a civilized dispute looks like. Later they might have fought each other to the death for their religion, but they were still capable of reason and civility.

Note that both Christian and Islamic sides were accusing each other at the time of cruel atrocities - and yet the Christian ideal of tolerance includes the possibility of civility with everyone, regardless of what the sides think of each other.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#226

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

ethanbond wrote: post #159
tom-_- wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Basic rights" is a subjective term and they're often in conflict with each other. Pro-choice vs pro-life being the classic example. If you believe freedom of speech is a basic right, then you should also believe in protecting the right of bigots to spread diatribe.

And I do believe that right ought to be protected. Nowhere in this thread is someone advocating that the state exercise its power to throw people with despicable beliefs in prison. This is about our society’s ability and justification to categorize beliefs into respectable or not. Some ideas are simply not deserving of respect, though of course all ideas are deserving of legal protection. Nazis are allowed to march d…

> "This is about our society’s ability and justification to categorize beliefs into respectable or not."

Yes, and that ability does not include harassment, doxxing, threats, and attempting to induce employers and customers to end their relationships with them. That _is_ just as bad as the other side.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#227

Post by [deleted] »

legulere wrote: post #204
tom-_- wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Basic rights" is a subjective term and they're often in conflict with each other. Pro-choice vs pro-life being the classic example. If you believe freedom of speech is a basic right, then you should also believe in protecting the right of bigots to spread diatribe.

It often is, but sometimes those rights are only imagined rights. Does a right extremist have a right to have his race free from other races? You say yourself that rights are sometimes at conflict with each other. That requires that sometimes rights are restricted to a point that other rights are not infringed. For instance we lock up dangerous people. Why do you think is freedom of speech is some kind of super-right…

[deleted]

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#228

Post by ethanbond »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #226
ethanbond wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I do believe that right ought to be protected. Nowhere in this thread is someone advocating that the state exercise its power to throw people with despicable beliefs in prison. This is about our society’s ability and justification to categorize beliefs into respectable or not. Some ideas are simply not deserving of respect, though of course all ideas are deserving of legal protection. Nazis are allowed to march d…

> " This is about our society’s ability and justification to categorize beliefs into respectable or not. " Yes, and that ability does not include harassment, doxxing, threats, and attempting to induce employers and customers to end their relationships with them. That _is_ just as bad as the other side.

Without implying a defense of the behavior you listed: Maybe you should read more about the other side.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#229

Post by pas »

koheripbal wrote: post #217
pas wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm, have you seen the public recently? If you don't need protection, great! But hate speech emboldens bigots. It has a chilling effect.

If it emboldens them to commit an illegal act , arrest them. If "emboldens" just means that they are speaking in a venue you frequent, then that isn't a problem. > "It has a chilling effect." The irony is that you are using a term that is actually a consequence of the actions you propose.

I have no problem with citing them. Just as there's traffic court, there could be a your're-a-fucking-bigot court. Enough strikes and you're out. (Yes, the the problem of state-approved reality is very obviously hard. Yet that's basically what Germany does by criminalizing denial of certain facts about WWII.)

I'm perfectly aware. There's no irony. It's the dilemma of tolerance. Using oppression to minimize oppression. A chilling effect on undesirable ideas to counter their spread to counter the growth of groups whose presence and actions similarly lead to chilling effect.

The not so subtle difference is that one group sometimes commits acts of terror.

Yes, giving this capability officially to the state has serious consequences. Though it's not like states doesn't already have the capacity monopolized (and alas it's not like there are no abuses of state capacity without nowadays).

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#230

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

ethanbond wrote: post #228
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> " This is about our society’s ability and justification to categorize beliefs into respectable or not. " Yes, and that ability does not include harassment, doxxing, threats, and attempting to induce employers and customers to end their relationships with them. That _is_ just as bad as the other side.

Without implying a defense of the behavior you listed: Maybe you should read more about the other side.

I know what their views are but thank you for your kind suggestion. However, I also know where rhetoric about "society’s ability and justification to categorize beliefs into respectable or not" leads. I stand by my opinion.
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