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Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

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Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#141
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care about you trying to cancel me lol that's why this is a sock account, but it's even more telling that you think basic descriptive (not prescriptive) observations about reality are not moderate.

Yeah, but why not stuff like immigration, stances on environmental regulation, income tax rates on high earners, gun rights... You've gotta agree that those fall under the moderate umbrella a bit more right? I've lived/worked in some very conservative environments and I don't think anyone would've walked along with the race IQ path.

My comment was in relation to the topic of the parent comment, which is why I mentioned it at all. Income tax rates and environmental regulation very rarely get brought up in conjunction with why there are gaps in racial outcome that aren't the result of racism. I think we can both agree that the things I mentioned are more more on point with arguments pertaining to racial outcomes, even if you completely disagree with those arguments.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#142
post #49
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That there are reasons other than racism that partially explain the achievement gap between races.

Such as...?

The general unwillingness (and career danger) to even study this topic is concerning to me. Maybe there are correlated factors, maybe there aren’t. I think we’d all be better off if these topics could be studied, so they could be understood, so any negative effects could be ameliorated most effectively.

When I see respected economists reporting that there are differences in economic success that are correlated with race and respected sociologists reporting differences and other factual data analysis, I see differences that seem to persist by race. All of those are output measurements. What’s the next logical thing you do as an academic, seeking to understand a problem in search of a persistent, structural solution? Go look for input measures and see what you can learn about the system. That’s the step that seems to be a third-rail and if we’re not willing to study the structural inputs to the problem, we’re handicapping ourselves in solving any of it.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#143
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you get people who silently support the views.

i'll bet there are still a bunch of people who silently oppose interracial marriage in the US. But... they will be dead soon and their ideas will die with them

A person may die but ideas lives on.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#145

I would absolutely be denied opportunities for projects, publicity, promotion, and advancement in my field if I were known to have political views that deviated from the norm in my industry, which I will state for the record is hard left. Consequently, I express no personal non-work related opinions not only at work but in fact not even with “friendlies,” as loose lips sink ships. It is a shitty way to live, given ho…

So I don’t get it, did we create a situation where you cannot discuss politics at lunch with coworkers?

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#146
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not destruction of the middle ground, but rather hiding of the middle ground. Moderates do not feel safe to express moderate views for fear of being ostracized and cancelled.

Do you have any links to examples of moderate views that will get one cancelled? I would be really interested in this topic.

? Most cancellations are of moderates.

JK Rowling's view that Women, and Men who transition to women, while they should have 'equal rights' - are not the same thing, that there is a difference and that difference should be respected - got her cancelled. They are out for here in droves.

This is a mainstream view and probably extremely popular.

In fact, outside of hyperbolic politics I'll be basically anyone that even accepts 'trans folks' (because a lot of people wouldn't in the first places) actually feels that way.

The movement to 'erase' any possible difference that people might view Women/Trans Women differently is rooted I think in a really emotional, almost child-like concern/anger/will to 'defend rights!!!' in such a way that anyone who disagrees must be destroyed, without conceding some probable, basic realities.

I actually think that in a more calm, moderate, less hyperbolic situation, nobody would want to cancel her. It's the aggressive voice of less than 0.1% on the fringe who've internalized a lot of their academic views into emotional one's.

They tried to cancel Steven Pinker recently for suggesting, that according to the science, Americans are more generally subject to quite a bit more police aggression overall, and that though Black people to face disproportionate ire, that the problem is more general and widespread whereupon Black people have an acute situation.

Which personally always felt was the case, and absolutely nobody is willing to say it.

Put in other words, he almost said, in an academic kind of way that 'All Lives Matter' i.e. police aggression is more or less a general problem, not just a Black problem.

For this there were signatories, back room pushes etc. to cancel him. Fortunately, he's respected enough that he didn't have to worry but any 'less famous' prof. would have been destroyed.

This is again similar to JK Rowling in that a very basic, factual and what should be 'not even controversial opinion' gets you in a lot of trouble.

Almost ironically, during a CBC interview, Pinker spoke politely at length about the issues and used soft language to refer to the 'more extreme' on the left - but hilariously he used the language 'Social Marxist' which is almost identical to the term 'Cultural Marxist' (a derogatory term coined apparently by some bad person). It's funny because the logic of the terminology, which is to say that while Marx spoke about 'class struggle', the 'Social Marxists' (Pinker's words) use the same language but for race, gender etc.. If Pinker would have been anyone else, on a US outlet and had used slightly different words, he would have been publicly pilloried. It's funny how that works.

The fact that even Steven Pinker has come to the very obvious conclusion that this is very similar ideology but instead of 'class' you have 'race' or 'gender' - but that literally using any terminology to reflect that could get you in hot water, is Orwellian.

Imagine if the Nazis made a rule to suggest that any reference to the existence of Nazism or the power of the government will be met with prison or death. People all running around in that totalitarianism without even the language to point to said totalitarianism. It's probably the most 'Orwellian' of all 'Orwellian' concepts.

There is an interesting historical parallel during the Weimar republic, the German Communist Party (KPD) hated the 'centre left' socialists (i.e. people like Rowling, Pinker) more than anyone.

"The party directed most of its attacks against the Social Democratic Party of Germany, which it regarded as its main adversary and referred to as "social fascists"; the KPD considered all other parties in the Weimar Republic to be 'fascists'."

Literally anyone 'less Communist' than them, was a 'fascist' and subject of most of their ire.

Actually, this is not even 'parallel' - this is the the same social response being played out.

There are surely some 'Real American Nazis' who feel the same way, but I don't think anyone actually supports them, they have no power at all, whereas the 'Social Cancellers' have control over academia, a powerful wing in Congress, and weirdly enough extensive influence in the board room and are now trying to drive corporate social policy with some success which I think is due to the fact there's a lot of mostly good intention there, hard to separate from the more radical stuff.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Germany

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#147
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But... there are actually people who believe that those with a certain skin color or of a certain sexual orientation or religion actually should not have basic rights. Not everyone who gets targeted as such holds those beliefs, sure, but they absolutely do exist in America. Until fairly recently, those people’s beliefs actually drove real policies in America that had real teeth and caused real suffering for real peop…

These topics have been debated for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Hence, the US constitution was created. It’s been working pretty well so far. And, I don’t think it’ll be changing anytime soon.

The US Constitution has been working pretty well for some people so far. For others, it has only started to work well thanks to brave Americans standing up and risking their lives to demand that it work well for more people than before.

A lot of that work involved dismissing some ideologies as fundamentally incompatible with America. Speaking of civility, one time we literally had to go to war with ourselves over what one side would characterize as a mere “political disagreement.”

The Constitution failed to protect people from systematic rape, torture, and forced labor for nearly the first 100 years of its governance over America. It failed to allow women to get credit before 1974. None of what we have today is guaranteed. Plenty of nations have slid backwards from liberalism.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#148

I would absolutely be denied opportunities for projects, publicity, promotion, and advancement in my field if I were known to have political views that deviated from the norm in my industry, which I will state for the record is hard left. Consequently, I express no personal non-work related opinions not only at work but in fact not even with “friendlies,” as loose lips sink ships. It is a shitty way to live, given ho…

It is a healthier way to live to keep that sort of stuff to yourself. There used to be a rule not to bring up religion or politics up at work, and this rule was good. Just because the left or what is more commonly known as liberal side of people are increasingly comfortable ignoring that rule doesn't make it any less of a proper rule. Keep the personal feelings aside and do what you're paid to do to the best of your ability, eventually the pendulum will swing in the other direction and the loud people now will be punished for being loud, and then the people on the right will begin to be loud and obnoxious. At that point, even if you agree with things being said, still keep your mouth shut and do your work to your best of your ability. Everybody who is paying attention and values hard work sees who is showing restraint and that restraint gets rewarded in the long term. It's not as fun in the short term to have discipline when very few people around you have discipline, but long term it is much more fun and worthwhile.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#149

I would absolutely be denied opportunities for projects, publicity, promotion, and advancement in my field if I were known to have political views that deviated from the norm in my industry, which I will state for the record is hard left. Consequently, I express no personal non-work related opinions not only at work but in fact not even with “friendlies,” as loose lips sink ships. It is a shitty way to live, given ho…

Which industry do you work in? I am looking for a new job and would appreciate something hard-left rather than hard-California, which seems to be the new norm in the worldwide software industry.

Re: Poll: 62% of Americans Say They Have Political Views They’re Afraid to Share

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont think that's quite fair, basic civility would mean not immediately trying to frame something you disagree with as denying basic rights, and trying to have a more practical discussion about the issues.

But... there are actually people who believe that those with a certain skin color or of a certain sexual orientation or religion actually should not have basic rights. Not everyone who gets targeted as such holds those beliefs, sure, but they absolutely do exist in America. Until fairly recently, those people’s beliefs actually drove real policies in America that had real teeth and caused real suffering for real peop…

"Basic rights" is a subjective term and they're often in conflict with each other. Pro-choice vs pro-life being the classic example.

If you believe freedom of speech is a basic right, then you should also believe in protecting the right of bigots to spread diatribe.

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