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I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

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Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#171

Post by abecedarius »

blhack wrote: post #107

I've said this in some of the other threads on this topic, but I'll say it again: The huge (and incorrect) assumption that people are making about upvotes is that everybody reading the comments is stupid. We're not using the upvote count as a 100% perfect indicator of if somebody is correct or not, we're using it as an indicator of how many upvotes the comment has gotten. It's just one of several things that we can u…

On stackoverflow the criteria for voting are considerably more concrete, yet it's clear that voting there is strongly biased by vote counts. HN might have more rational voters (though look who's saying so), but they're still human, and the fuzzier criteria, shorter active lives of posts, and volume of comments to scan through probably more than make up for this.

(I could've made this same reply to other comments here.)

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#172

Post by hackinthebochs »

ggchappell wrote: post #167
mixmax wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a minor detail that might or might or might not be significant. I personally don't see a lot of comments with negative votes that weren't deserved, but maybe you frequent other threads than I do. On the other hand, I agree with the OP that not showing the votes has significant downsides. For instance, I don't know whether your comment is something a lot of people agree on (it has a lot of upvotes) or it has j…

> For instance, I don't know whether your comment is something a lot of people agree on (it has a lot of upvotes) .... That highlights a major problem right there. I would hope that upvotes are for worthwhile contributions to the discussion. You (and others) seem to assume that they are for agreement. Different things. I would like to know whether lots of people think a comment is worthwhile. But except in the rare c…

Most upvotes are going to be based on agreement, its simply psychological. We're more likely to even consider upvoting something if we agree with it. Downvotes on the other hand, have a detrimental effect such that we can stop to think if this actually deserves a downvote after we get the impulse. So even though ideally upvotes should be about adding to discussion, it's just not going to play out that way.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#173

Post by wrs »

ggchappell wrote: post #167
mixmax wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a minor detail that might or might or might not be significant. I personally don't see a lot of comments with negative votes that weren't deserved, but maybe you frequent other threads than I do. On the other hand, I agree with the OP that not showing the votes has significant downsides. For instance, I don't know whether your comment is something a lot of people agree on (it has a lot of upvotes) or it has j…

> For instance, I don't know whether your comment is something a lot of people agree on (it has a lot of upvotes) .... That highlights a major problem right there. I would hope that upvotes are for worthwhile contributions to the discussion. You (and others) seem to assume that they are for agreement. Different things. I would like to know whether lots of people think a comment is worthwhile. But except in the rare c…

This has been suggested before, but perhaps the ability to vote separately on "good/bad contribution" and "agree/disagree" would be a good thing. If nothing else, it might give the "agree/disagree" folks a way to express their views without affecting the sorting (which should be by "good/bad contribution", I hope most would agree).

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#174

Post by fluidcruft »

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #98
mmaunder wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's quite brilliant. How about up, down and abstain buttons and if you click any you get to see the vote count and you're done voting. It will encourage voting, remove the social proof influence and give the option to abstain.

That defeats the entire point of having people vote who know what they're talking about. I watch my karma on reddit and HN very closely. It is very rare that I get reflexively downvoted as a result of initial voting, and when it does happen, I mention it and clarify my post and almost always see it even back out.

Oh, are you one of those pathologic "Edit: Downvotes? Really?!?" karma gamers on reddit that seem to feel entitled to upvotes? I think that sort of meta-entitlement karma-whoring is extremely annoying. I get a little chuckle when the person playing that game makes the edit within the ninja-edit window and is missing the edit-star on their comment. Of course even on HN even with the hidden points, you see your own comment points, so feel free to go ahead and play that game here. Or just pretend you're being abused by the ignorant hordes. It's pretty easy. Nobody knows if you're actually negative here anymore.

Edit: Downvotes? WTF? I'd like to know who downvoted this. At least post some constructive criticism.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#175

Post by JabavuAdams »

alain94040 wrote: post #155
JabavuAdams wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's making the site less useful to those who are making the site less useful.

You don't seem to accept that other people may have different tastes than you. I often use the vote count to be more efficient in getting a grasp of the issues quickly, without reading everything. Great for you if you like to read everything from start to finish. Not everyone does, at least not all the time.

> You don't seem to accept that other people may have different tastes than you.

No. I'm well aware that others have different tastes.

What I'm arguing is that this feature that some people find convenient and harmless is not in fact harmless, and actually systemically degrades the site over time.

It's a systems problem, not a problem with any one individual.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#176

Post by drivebyacct2 »

fluidcruft wrote: post #174
drivebyacct2 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That defeats the entire point of having people vote who know what they're talking about. I watch my karma on reddit and HN very closely. It is very rare that I get reflexively downvoted as a result of initial voting, and when it does happen, I mention it and clarify my post and almost always see it even back out.

Oh, are you one of those pathologic "Edit: Downvotes? Really?!?" karma gamers on reddit that seem to feel entitled to upvotes? I think that sort of meta-entitlement karma-whoring is extremely annoying. I get a little chuckle when the person playing that game makes the edit within the ninja-edit window and is missing the edit-star on their comment. Of course even on HN even with the hidden points, you see your own com…

I'm a karma gamer for being disappointed when rational opinions are downvoted by people that make incorrect assumptions or whose opinion get in the way of a good discussion?

I didn't really ask for your judgement, but since you've taken it upon yourself... I don't "game" karma. The few posts that I've editted here to inquire about downvotes have usually resulted in a further discussion supporting my point, or at the very least opening up further discussion about areas of contention. As it often turns out, no one had bothered checking the child comment below me that said "No you're wrong because of [obvious statement].", when in reality it turned out that actual evidence or a simple screenshot proved my stance.

If I edit my post and point this out and inquire as to why people downvoted me without supporting their position...

That's me "gaming karma"? That's a sad stance. I should just let people say that Chrome 11 lacks H.264 support when a very simple test and very minimal amounts of research prove otherwise? What would you have me do, but edit my post and plea that people take a second to research what they think they know rather than just recalling the infamous blog post that was on HN for a week discussing a phase-out of H264?

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#177

Post by jaxn »

alain94040 wrote: post #148
mixmax wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a minor detail that might or might or might not be significant. I personally don't see a lot of comments with negative votes that weren't deserved, but maybe you frequent other threads than I do. On the other hand, I agree with the OP that not showing the votes has significant downsides. For instance, I don't know whether your comment is something a lot of people agree on (it has a lot of upvotes) or it has j…

Agreed (if you don't like short comments like mine, bring back the vote count and I'll happily upvote the parent)

Whereas before this would have gotten downvoted, but there is now no meaningful way to communicate your agreement than to leave a comment.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#179

Post by Sakes »

mixmax wrote: post #161
Sakes wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read that slightly differently. I read that as meaning there is a greater disparity between the high voted comments and the low comments. I don't see it addressing the quantity of highly voted comments vs quantity of lower voted comments. Good point though. It does definitely question my assertion that the herd mentality has negatively affected the value of upvotes. But I don't believe it disproves it.

isn't herd mentality exactly piling votes onto something that's already popular? If so, then herd mentality has been growing while we haven't had visible votes.

My experience is that I upvote less now. Which means I'm more selective about what I upvote. I am no longer affected by the polling of the community.

If this is a common change in other's voting patterns, you might see a shrinking of mid ranked comments, since there are less votes to go around.

If this is the case, I would say that the herd metality has been removed. I never stopped voting on comments that I thought were really good, just on the ones that I was on the fence about, and pushed over by their rank.

The fact that the high comments have seen a bump? Maybe people are reading more in depth, which could get them a few extra up votes? It's a possiblity.

We won't know for sure until we see some actual stats about whats going on. I don't think either side could prove the other wrong at this point.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#180

Post by mattdeboard »

[deleted] wrote: post #178

[deleted]

I have never. Ever. EVER. witnessed the top comment on an active HN thread be something "witty remarks that a lot of people found funny." Granted, I've only been here a year or so, but comment threads here do come very close to being a true meritocracy, where merit is a function is insight, relevance, wit and brevity.

HN only feels like Reddit comment threads to me on these introspective topics. I avoid them for the most part but your comment in particular stood out to me.

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