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I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#161

Post by mixmax »

Sakes wrote: post #140
mixmax wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's simply not true - "Comments with high scores seem to have slightly higher scores than they would have, but comments with low scores seem to have about the same. Probably because the -4 limit on displayed comment scores was already concealing the actual score. " http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2465002

I read that slightly differently. I read that as meaning there is a greater disparity between the high voted comments and the low comments. I don't see it addressing the quantity of highly voted comments vs quantity of lower voted comments. Good point though. It does definitely question my assertion that the herd mentality has negatively affected the value of upvotes. But I don't believe it disproves it.

isn't herd mentality exactly piling votes onto something that's already popular? If so, then herd mentality has been growing while we haven't had visible votes.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#162

Post by rmc »

mjgoins wrote: post #127
lukifer wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Idea: a [view count] link. Once clicked, votes are ignored for that comment. You can vote, or get the social proof, but not both.

Unless you create two accounts.

All systems can be hacked and tweaked, you should never write off a system just because its possible to work around it. It's a trade off, and you have to weigh it all up.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#163

Post by xnxn »

larsberg wrote: post #156

I hate to be "that guy," but I don't see why the count display isn't an option in our account panel. In the previous polls, people seemed to be split 50/50-ish. Unless pg, as HN Overlord, feels that either removing counts has a performance or pedagogical purpose, this option seems like a perfect candidate for an account setting.

You've hit upon the answer yourself: it can't be a preference because hiding the vote count is intended to have a corrective effect on the voting and commenting behavior of the community at large.

If anyone could switch their vote count on, the majority would -- including myself -- to the detriment of us all.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#165

Post by gloob »

wdewind wrote: post #70
neild wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without some sort of vote indicator, it's hard to tell who has the most accurate opinion, except often in subjects like law, security, and seo where there are known experts that often chime in (e.g. grellas, tptacek, patio11). You assume that votes are a good indicator of who holds the most accurate opinion. My experience says that they are merely an indicator of who holds the most popular opinion, or who argues thei…

No one should be suggesting votes = accuracy of opinion, this is demonstrably incorrect. What I'm arguing is that how popular an answer is is actually a valuable piece of information, outside of its direct tie to how truthful a comment is. Having nothing there doesn't help me determine how truthful a comment is more than knowing popular opinion.

To my understanding, it is generally accepted that the primary purpose of karma points on HN is to encourage good discussions. One of the most common reasons I've seen proposed by people who want to bring back visible scores for comments is "it'll make threads easier for me to skim". Another common reason I've seen is "how can I know what I should think without visible karma points?" I feel that it is worth bearing in mind that neither of those reasons is "bringing back visible comment scores will improve the quality of discussion." I also feel that (with the exception of borderline-trollish comments like http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2495648 and "Bring back visible scores because I'm angry today!" threads) that discussion quality has improved since comment scores where made invisible, though obviously that position is up for debate. But, if we accept that the primary purpose of karma points is to encourage good discussion (and making, e.g. skimming comment threads easier is at best a secondary purpose), and (for the sake of argument) we accept that making comment scores invisible has improved discussion quality, then it is clear that the correct decision is to keep comment scores invisible, imho.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#166

Post by bandushrew »

I am very sorry, but that is just wrong.

Votes are not a reliable indication of whether or not a post is correct.

They are a reliable indication of whether or not a post is popular.

It does sometimes happen that a post is both correct and popular, but that is not something it is ever safe to rely on.

'Social Proof' is a fantasy that does not exist.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#167

Post by ggchappell »

mixmax wrote: post #113
mmaunder wrote: post #3

You need to ween yourself off your social proof addiction. The problem with vote counts is that two downvotes can start a cascade of reflex downvotes. Or at best, it won't get upvoted. When vote counts where active, this effect caused many instances where an excellent comment was found greyed out at the bottom of the page until a few smart HN folks with high karma voted it back up.

This is a minor detail that might or might or might not be significant. I personally don't see a lot of comments with negative votes that weren't deserved, but maybe you frequent other threads than I do. On the other hand, I agree with the OP that not showing the votes has significant downsides. For instance, I don't know whether your comment is something a lot of people agree on (it has a lot of upvotes) or it has j…

> For instance, I don't know whether your comment is something a lot of people agree on (it has a lot of upvotes) ....

That highlights a major problem right there. I would hope that upvotes are for worthwhile contributions to the discussion. You (and others) seem to assume that they are for agreement. Different things. I would like to know whether lots of people think a comment is worthwhile. But except in the rare case of polls, I'm usually not much interested in who agrees.

So as long as lots of people think in terms of agreement, I say counts can stay hidden.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#168

Post by grellas »

Since HNers are so divided on this issue (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2445039), why not do one month on, one month off for a time to do a sort of A/B testing over a sustained period while keeping everyone at least semi-happy half the time? This would have the added benefit of letting cumulative totals get updated on searchyc from time to time.
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