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I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

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Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#151

Post by alain94040 »

vacri wrote: post #100
lukifer wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Idea: a [view count] link. Once clicked, votes are ignored for that comment. You can vote, or get the social proof, but not both.

Bad idea. That doesn't help skimming for info, which is the main poster's problem - you have to read the comment before you decide to find out if it's upvoted. And once you've done that, you've already committed the time. Sound nice, but it's not practical.

Agreed (if you don't like short comments like mine, bring back the vote count and I'll happily upvote the parent)

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#152

Post by alain94040 »

blhack wrote: post #124
lukifer wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Idea: a [view count] link. Once clicked, votes are ignored for that comment. You can vote, or get the social proof, but not both.

How does this help the situation at all? And how long before there's a plugin to "click" all of the [view count] links? The point is that we want to be able to see karma relative to the rest of the thread . If one comment in 20 has 150 upvotes, it means we should at least look at it because what is being said might be important.

Agreed (if you don't like short comments like mine, bring back the vote count and I'll happily upvote the parent)

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#153

Post by wdewind »

Sakes wrote: post #131
wdewind wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you've just told me is the community is broken, not the system.

No, what he is saying is that the system that worked for a small community of like minded individuals does not work for a large diverse community. The upvote system used to work because it consisted of a lot of similar people saying, this is a good point, or I like this. Today's community is much more diverse, which is inevitable when you have a quality service/product/community/yadda yadda. >> In total, Hacker News…

I don't really disagree with your premises, but please explain how removing upvotes fixed the problem.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#154

Post by ugh »

JCB_K wrote: post #45
nyellin wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the whole, I concur. However, for comments like your own, the votes are interesting, as a rough measure of whether the HN community agrees with you or not. (It's a rough measure because upvoting!=agreeing.) Clarification: I don't want to bring back vote counts, or even a general indicator of votes, like others have suggested. I approve of the hiding votes, but a creative compromise could be better than what we hav…

* a rough measure of whether the HN community agrees with you or not.* It shouldn't be. Like you said, upvoting!=agreeing. It should be a rough measure of you making your point in a good way.

I think there is a problem with the “upvote doesn’t imply agreement” dictum. It doesn’t make all that much sense to me, at least not in all situations.

I can imagine an eloquent, well written movie review with which I don’t agree but which I think is so well written that it should be read by more people. That’s taste and you should certainly not downvote taste, but most discussions on HN are not about taste but rather about questions with right and wrong answers.

When I’m disagreeing with someone about those I must be thinking that what the person writes is based on wrong facts or is illogical. Should users be encouraged to upvote eloquent and well written comments even if they think those comments are spreading false information and are illogical? (Whether or not such comments should be downvoted is a different question. I tend not to.)

It’s never quite that clear cut in the real world. You might feel that the facts are wrong or that some illogical argument is hiding somewhere in the comment but you might not be sure about it. Upvoting may be the right thing to do, then – the comment can be seen by a wider audience and it can come under more scrutiny. The comment and its analysis can help all parties to get closer to the truth.

There is no doubt to me that there are situations in which upvoting despite disagreement can be a good idea. I also think that upvoting because of agreement and not upvoting because of disagreement can be a good idea.

On a certain level, agreement and “making your point in a good way” are one and the same. No matter how eloquent, how can a comment with factual errors that undermine its central thesis ever be an example of “making your point in a good way”?

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#155

Post by alain94040 »

JabavuAdams wrote: post #111
randallsquared wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may improve the "level of discussion" in some abstract way, but it certainly does make it less useful for individual readers. It was common, before, for me to jump into the comments of a dicussion, check out the few highest rated ones, and then read the article with that information in mind, coming back to read other comments after that. With nothing to differentiate upvoted comments (unless they happen to be at t…

Maybe it's making the site less useful to those who are making the site less useful.

You don't seem to accept that other people may have different tastes than you. I often use the vote count to be more efficient in getting a grasp of the issues quickly, without reading everything. Great for you if you like to read everything from start to finish. Not everyone does, at least not all the time.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#156

Post by larsberg »

I hate to be "that guy," but I don't see why the count display isn't an option in our account panel.

In the previous polls, people seemed to be split 50/50-ish. Unless pg, as HN Overlord, feels that either removing counts has a performance or pedagogical purpose, this option seems like a perfect candidate for an account setting.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#158

Post by alain94040 »

JCB_K wrote: post #45
nyellin wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the whole, I concur. However, for comments like your own, the votes are interesting, as a rough measure of whether the HN community agrees with you or not. (It's a rough measure because upvoting!=agreeing.) Clarification: I don't want to bring back vote counts, or even a general indicator of votes, like others have suggested. I approve of the hiding votes, but a creative compromise could be better than what we hav…

* a rough measure of whether the HN community agrees with you or not.* It shouldn't be. Like you said, upvoting!=agreeing. It should be a rough measure of you making your point in a good way.

ugh has a very good definition of what a high vote count means: the comment is a must read. It doesn't mean everyone agrees, but it's a key point in the overall discussion.

You took away such an important buoy for us to navigate HN!

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#160

Post by b3b0p »

Maybe make the up / down votes on a comment a reward for participating on that thread.

That is, if you up vote / down vote a comment and make a comment on that comment you can view that comments vote count. Does that make sense or did it come out sounding bad?

Just a thought. I think I like it without knowing the vote count.

Edit: Clarification.

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