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I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

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Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#111

Post by JabavuAdams »

randallsquared wrote: post #86
Alex3917 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I still hold they are far superior to nothing." I disagree. Since the new system was implemented the signal:noise ratio seems to have gone up. The fact that HN is more difficult to read now is a good thing; it forces people to think for themselves, and improves the overall level of discussion. I do agree that the voting should be shown after a few days, but for right now the changes seem to be making things better.

It may improve the "level of discussion" in some abstract way, but it certainly does make it less useful for individual readers. It was common, before, for me to jump into the comments of a dicussion, check out the few highest rated ones, and then read the article with that information in mind, coming back to read other comments after that. With nothing to differentiate upvoted comments (unless they happen to be at t…

Maybe it's making the site less useful to those who are making the site less useful.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#112

Post by wdewind »

ericd wrote: post #87
wdewind wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right about the herd mentality, but that's the whole point: measuring the herd mentality has a value. No one is asking you to put 100% of your judgment in the point count, and you'd be a fool to do so, much as you'd be a fool to believe everything you see on TV. Showing points does not kill HNers brains. We've already lost if it does.

It has far less value than you might think. When this community was 100% startuppers, that worked better, but now there are so many people who don't have first hand experience that are willing to upvote anything that sounds correct that it's lost a lot of its value. It's now a dangerous positive feedback loop. High vote counts tend to be very convincing to all but the most discriminating people, it's not the mark of…

What you've just told me is the community is broken, not the system.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#113

Post by mixmax »

mmaunder wrote: post #3

You need to ween yourself off your social proof addiction. The problem with vote counts is that two downvotes can start a cascade of reflex downvotes. Or at best, it won't get upvoted. When vote counts where active, this effect caused many instances where an excellent comment was found greyed out at the bottom of the page until a few smart HN folks with high karma voted it back up.

This is a minor detail that might or might or might not be significant. I personally don't see a lot of comments with negative votes that weren't deserved, but maybe you frequent other threads than I do.

On the other hand, I agree with the OP that not showing the votes has significant downsides. For instance, I don't know whether your comment is something a lot of people agree on (it has a lot of upvotes) or it has just been posted two seconds ago, and is thus the top comment. You won't know whether other people agree with my comment either.

This becomes even worse when it's a discussion about something like security - if someone posts a comment saying that you should always use md5 encryption and someone else replies that this is wrong and you should always use bcrypt which is right? I simply don't know, even though one of the answers may be obviously correct and the other obviously incorrect.

Besides - low scores are about the same as they were before, and high scores are a bit higher. Source: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2465002

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#114

Post by blhack »

Alex3917 wrote: post #28
wdewind wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is absolutely a fault in any social proof system. As I mentioned, upvotes need to be taken with a grain of salt. I still hold they are far superior to nothing. Edit: case in point: I'd REALLY like to know how many people upvoted mmaunders original comment.

"I still hold they are far superior to nothing." I disagree. Since the new system was implemented the signal:noise ratio seems to have gone up. The fact that HN is more difficult to read now is a good thing; it forces people to think for themselves, and improves the overall level of discussion. I do agree that the voting should be shown after a few days, but for right now the changes seem to be making things better.

I disagree with you. The signal/noise ratio has gone down considerably. What I'm noticing now is that people are writing longer comments, but the comments have considerably less substance.

People can't stand out based on upvotes (actual community approval) so they're trying to stand out based on post-length.

At a very basic glance it appears that what you're saying is true, but I've found the opposite.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#116

Post by jasonlotito »

jshen wrote: post #55

"because I could easily sort through the legitimacy of opinions based on their upvotes. " This is a mistake. People frequently vote down things that are right because they don't understand the material as well as they think they do.

Except the mechanic for voting down (dimming out the comment) remains.

Also, my experience is that the down votes are usually countered. Good comments get a good number of points.

By removing points from comments, you've made points worthless for determining comment value. In that way, having them is pointless.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#117

Post by joeyespo »

lukifer wrote: post #18
mmaunder wrote: post #3

You need to ween yourself off your social proof addiction. The problem with vote counts is that two downvotes can start a cascade of reflex downvotes. Or at best, it won't get upvoted. When vote counts where active, this effect caused many instances where an excellent comment was found greyed out at the bottom of the page until a few smart HN folks with high karma voted it back up.

Idea: a [view count] link. Once clicked, votes are ignored for that comment. You can vote, or get the social proof, but not both.

I upvoted this. My own opinion. I don't know how many other silent readers agree, but hopefully I can know soon.

Building on your idea: why not also have the downvote count revealed after pressing up/down/pass? That way we can also know more than the net score tells us.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#118

Post by Malcx »

huhtenberg wrote: post #72
spencerfry wrote: post #2

I completely agree. I don't have time to read every comment. I miss being able to skim to crowd-sourced, high up-voted comments.

These high up-voted comments are still exactly where they were before - at the top of the thread.

Not always, that is only used to sort comments at the same level. Often a root comment may have had 2 or 3 points and a counter argument contained some useful insight and would be upvoted to 30+ Skim reading would allow me to spot this comment contains something worth reading...

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#119

Post by bmccormack »

joe_the_user wrote: post #75
lukifer wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Idea: a [view count] link. Once clicked, votes are ignored for that comment. You can vote, or get the social proof, but not both.

Would having a socket puppet just to peek at votes be grounds for banning?

Would this even be a problem for most scenarios? I don't think most users have (or would want to spend) the time to look at two browsers for every set of comments I want to view and/or vote on.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#120

Post by blhack »

mmaunder wrote: post #3

You need to ween yourself off your social proof addiction. The problem with vote counts is that two downvotes can start a cascade of reflex downvotes. Or at best, it won't get upvoted. When vote counts where active, this effect caused many instances where an excellent comment was found greyed out at the bottom of the page until a few smart HN folks with high karma voted it back up.

I hate this assumption that everybody on HN is stupid. We're not. HN is one of the smartest communities on the internet.

I'm not saying that everybody here is completely immune to what you're talking about, but this isn't digg. We're not just going to heap on the downvotes because we're trying to follow the pack. In fact I've found the opposite to be true; HNers seem to be really good about correcting downvotes. Compare the bottom comments here to the bottom comments at reddit if you don't believe me.

And what you're saying isn't fixed by hiding vote counts, downvoted comments still appear grayed out.

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