Lately, I've been reading the "new" headlines as opposed to the "top" headlines to find those hidden gems that _I_ think are interesting.
I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count
81–90 of 248 posts
Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's quite brilliant. How about up, down and abstain buttons and if you click any you get to see the vote count and you're done voting. It will encourage voting, remove the social proof influence and give the option to abstain.
There should be an option to abstain from voting as well, for those that don't know if it's a valid comment or not.
Isn't that just called "not voting"?
Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count
#83Yes please. Also, the poll at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2445039 showed that most people agree.
And yet, an astonishing number prefer without. I'd argue that as the particular problem being worked on is increasing group think, this would be a perfect example of herd mentality or popularity contest leading us in the wrong direction.
Throughout threads such as these, the general reason for votes is to avoid reading or to be told without thinking what to think, while the general reason given for preferring them gone is an elevation in discussion.
The second was the stated goal for hiding them in the first place, and the first is the problem to combat -- glib votes.
Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count
#84I did not even notice they removed the vote count. It doesn't bother me. I don't know how to downvote either though
Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count
#85I guess only pg can answer this, but I'm wondering how the change has impacted voting behavior. Have there been more or less votes per comment? Has the proportion of upvotes to downvotes changed?
I get the sense that my comments have received more rather than less votes since the change. Previously, when a decent comment of mine had say 10 upvotes, I felt like people concluded "good enough" and didn't bother upvoting. Now without the score feedback, I actually feel like some of my mediocre comments have gotten more upvotes than they deserved.
Some behavior data would go a long way toward confirming or denying hypotheses like these.
Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
That is absolutely a fault in any social proof system. As I mentioned, upvotes need to be taken with a grain of salt. I still hold they are far superior to nothing. Edit: case in point: I'd REALLY like to know how many people upvoted mmaunders original comment.
"I still hold they are far superior to nothing." I disagree. Since the new system was implemented the signal:noise ratio seems to have gone up. The fact that HN is more difficult to read now is a good thing; it forces people to think for themselves, and improves the overall level of discussion. I do agree that the voting should be shown after a few days, but for right now the changes seem to be making things better.
It may improve the "level of discussion" in some abstract way, but it certainly does make it less useful for individual readers.
It was common, before, for me to jump into the comments of a dicussion, check out the few highest rated ones, and then read the article with that information in mind, coming back to read other comments after that. With nothing to differentiate upvoted comments (unless they happen to be at the same thread level in the same thread), there's no way for me to do that, now. I don't view this as a good thing.
Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
I definitely agree, having upvotes visible fostered a herd mentality. What I really like is there is less of a knee jerk reaction to assigning value to a post. You can assume it's value based upon placement, but in order to determine it's value you must actually read what they say. What I don't understand is why people need to be told what is valuable. With an ever changing community, I don't see how you could foreve…
You're right about the herd mentality, but that's the whole point: measuring the herd mentality has a value. No one is asking you to put 100% of your judgment in the point count, and you'd be a fool to do so, much as you'd be a fool to believe everything you see on TV. Showing points does not kill HNers brains. We've already lost if it does.
It has far less value than you might think. When this community was 100% startuppers, that worked better, but now there are so many people who don't have first hand experience that are willing to upvote anything that sounds correct that it's lost a lot of its value. It's now a dangerous positive feedback loop.
High vote counts tend to be very convincing to all but the most discriminating people, it's not the mark of a fool to believe what everyone is telling them is correct, just a sign of inexperience with that topic.
Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count
#88The highly voted comments still float to the top of the page don't they? When I was only reading the highly voted commetns I started to feel like I was only getting the popular opinion, especially so when it came to touchy topics. If HN does decide to turn the count back on I'd love an option to turn it back off in my own profile.
> The highly voted comments still float to the top of the page don't they?
Highly voted parent comments. Child comments remain children of a parent.
Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
There should be an option to abstain from voting as well, for those that don't know if it's a valid comment or not.
Isn't that just called "not voting"?
I think they mean "not voting but still being able to see how people voted on that particular comment"
Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
You put that excellently. Indeed, Hacker News was and should be a place where social proof is not desired.
Everyone agrees that social proof is deleterious.
Not true, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion - the OP is saying that it's a necessary filter.