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I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

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Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#21

Post by MichaelApproved »

mmaunder wrote: post #3

You need to ween yourself off your social proof addiction. The problem with vote counts is that two downvotes can start a cascade of reflex downvotes. Or at best, it won't get upvoted. When vote counts where active, this effect caused many instances where an excellent comment was found greyed out at the bottom of the page until a few smart HN folks with high karma voted it back up.

But even you admit that eventually the excellent comment would eventually make it's way back up.

Maybe the solution is to only show positive vote counts. We were already stopped at -4, so not showing any count unless it's above 1 isn't that far off.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#22

Post by neild »

AgentConundrum wrote: post #11

I've noticed the same thing. I'll see a debate which is basically a thread of two people replying to each other with no other contributors. In this circumstance, it's impossible to distinguish between a situation where one person gets 10 upvotes and holds a well-agreed opinion and the other person gets 1 or 2 upvotes and is arguing his opinion just well enough to avoid being downvoted. I understand that we're suppose…

Without some sort of vote indicator, it's hard to tell who has the most accurate opinion, except often in subjects like law, security, and seo where there are known experts that often chime in (e.g. grellas, tptacek, patio11).

You assume that votes are a good indicator of who holds the most accurate opinion. My experience says that they are merely an indicator of who holds the most popular opinion, or who argues their point in the most convincing fashion. The latter is a particularly insidious case, since accurate information does not always go hand in hand with good debating skills.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#23

Post by hrktb »

sosuke wrote: post #8

The highly voted comments still float to the top of the page don't they? When I was only reading the highly voted commetns I started to feel like I was only getting the popular opinion, especially so when it came to touchy topics. If HN does decide to turn the count back on I'd love an option to turn it back off in my own profile.

Highly voted comments don't always stand up when the discussion gets into deep threads. I remember seeing a few threads with 20+ comments and one really insightful response in the middle changing the flow of the discussion.

I feel it is now difficult to have an idea of this kind of "flow" at a glance.

I'd love an option too show or hide the count. Or perhaps show the count when hovering or touching a link for a few seconds.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#24

Post by moxiemk1 »

I feel the opposite - I'm learning more, because if I'm spending the time to read something, I have to think critically about it and do research sometimes in order to have a good interpretation. It takes more time, but it's real learning, instead of echo-chamber reading.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#26

Post by gamble »

I've been trying to give it a chance, but so far it doesn't seem like hiding the vote counts has done anything to improve the quality of comments on HN. Honestly, I think it's had the opposite effect. The number of in-depth comments seems to have plummeted.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#27

Post by adharmad »

wdewind wrote: post #5
cglee wrote: post #4

I like not seeing vote count, but agree with you that it's a handy metric to sift through the cruft. How about a color scheme to show popularity instead of the specific vote count?

Sure - to be clear I'm not tied to upvotes as a number specifically, and I doubt anyone else is. But give us SOMETHING.

How about sorting comments in any subtree by the number of votes? That way hierarchy indicates the comments with the highest number of votes, while hiding the actual number itself.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#28

Post by Alex3917 »

wdewind wrote: post #7
mmaunder wrote: post #3

You need to ween yourself off your social proof addiction. The problem with vote counts is that two downvotes can start a cascade of reflex downvotes. Or at best, it won't get upvoted. When vote counts where active, this effect caused many instances where an excellent comment was found greyed out at the bottom of the page until a few smart HN folks with high karma voted it back up.

That is absolutely a fault in any social proof system. As I mentioned, upvotes need to be taken with a grain of salt. I still hold they are far superior to nothing. Edit: case in point: I'd REALLY like to know how many people upvoted mmaunders original comment.

"I still hold they are far superior to nothing."

I disagree. Since the new system was implemented the signal:noise ratio seems to have gone up. The fact that HN is more difficult to read now is a good thing; it forces people to think for themselves, and improves the overall level of discussion.

I do agree that the voting should be shown after a few days, but for right now the changes seem to be making things better.

Re: I don't learn anything on HN anymore, bring back the upvote count

#30

Post by besvinick »

I feel like all the articles that get posted on HN are ones that I come across through a variety of other sources (SAI, TechCrunch, etc.) on Twitter. I find HN to be much more useful for discussions that are started based off the aforementioned articles from other sites.
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